May is nearly out and so is May

[Serial_Apologist]

He campaigned half-heartedly. If he had campaigned vigorously that would have been reported widely because it would have been an outstandingly notable phenomenon in the referendum scenario!

I have to admit to feeling divided as to whether Corbyn campaigned vigorously, as he claimed he did, or whether he did not due to feelings that, in or out, the referendum vote would change little in terms of policy, which could only be brought about through a general election. As against the argument of those on the left who say that the EU consolidates worker rights and environmental protections that would be forfeited by a right-led British brexit, there were and are the counter-arguments that EU "fair competition" regulations rule out subsidising or nationalising ailing domestic industries; and in any case the EU had been moving increasingly towards a Thatcherite neoliberal economic agenda of privatisations etc, hence its embrace of May as exemplar of this trend and potential EU leader. Into all of this has to be factored the growing popularity of far right parties bent on dismantling the EU from within, which, unless it turns out to be a passing phenomenon (and why should it?) would also put whatever progressive policies are encrypted in EU law in jeopardy, notwithstanding Farage's insistence that the movement (with which he is strongly enmeshed) embraces a left-right spectrum of positions, and is only concerned with national autonomy [sic].

[Richard Barrett]

As for half-hearted, I have the impression that whatever JC had said or done the media would have used his eurosceptic past as a way of attempting to discredit his more recent more nuanced opinion, just as MrGG has done.

As against the argument of those on the left who say that the EU consolidates worker rights and environmental protections that would be forfeited by a right-led British brexit, there were and are the counter-arguments that EU "fair competition" regulations rule out subsidising or nationalising ailing domestic industries; and in any case the EU had been moving increasingly towards a Thatcherite neoliberal economic agenda of privatisations etc

Here's a quite strongly worded article from a few weeks ago that you might be interested to read on the latter subject:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/european-union-parliament-elections-antidemocratic

This is the kind of thing that has always made me a "eurosceptic"! Even so, my money is still on Brexit not really happening. The only thing that's happened in the course of the process which has surprised me somewhat is the shift in the spectrum of opinion - while previously there was talk of a whole range of "hard" and "soft" Brexits, now it seems to be either no deal or no Brexit, and if that were the choice I'm sure JC would wholeheartedly agree with me that the latter is preferable.

[french frank]

Here's a quite strongly worded article from a few weeks ago that you might be interested to read on the latter subject:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/europ...antidemocratic

I don't like to 'cherrypick' on the article but neither have I time to go through the whole thing point by point. Even (especially) EU supporters would conced that the EU isn't a perfect democracy. But neither is the UK. Cherrypick the points on which UK government IS democratic, and it can be answered by two points on which it's not (voting system which makes all governments 'minority' governments, all government ministers directly appointed by the leader of the 'winning' party', Royal Prerogatives and Henry VIII powers bestowing direct executive power to 'minority' governments, Private Members Bills that can be thrown out by one MP calling out, 'Object' &c).

I prefer to look at what has actually been carried out by this profoundly undemocratic body, eg stupid laws to protect the environment, proposed crackdown on global tax avoidance schemes, financial support to poorer regions, help for disaster relief.

The 'ideal' of the combined strength of nations is to promote peace and in all ways to promote the interests of its citizens. It may have 'failed' in some ways (which ways?) but in what ways has it done the opposite?

Some of the objections in the article seems to me to be protesting about our … loss of sovereignty, as much as the lack of democracy, and to demand of the EU what we do not enjoy in our own country.

[gurnemanz]

Private Eye just dropped through my letterbox. Theresa May Memorial Issue front cover features a blank page.

[Richard Barrett]

I prefer to look at what has actually been carried out by this profoundly undemocratic body, eg stupid laws to protect the environment, proposed crackdown on global tax avoidance schemes, financial support to poorer regions, help for disaster relief.

Of course any of those things could just as easily have been done without the EU. Turning Greece into a car boot sale, on the other hand, probably couldn't. And, under current circumstances, regardless of the not very relevant question of whether one or other member state is more or less democratic than the EU itself, it's a great deal easier to elect a national government with a commitment to expanding its commitment to democracy than it would be to make the EU more democratic.

[burning dog]

Presumably he campaigned remain on the grounds of pragmatism . And being a eurosceptic ( in my book) doesn't necessarily mean you have to pursue a policy to leave at any cost.
.

Ive always been unhappy with the term Eurosceptic being used to describe people like Peter Bone (still being used today) he's a bit more than merely sceptical, phobic fits better.

[gradus]

Anyone here signed up to the crowd-funding project to build a rocket that will carry Nigel Farage into outer space.

[Serial_Apologist]

Anyone here signed up to the crowd-funding project to build a rocket that will carry Nigel Farage into outer space.

I thought you were going to say: to pay Boris Johnson's legal fees.

[gurnemanz]

Anyone here signed up to the crowd-funding project to build a rocket that will carry Nigel Farage into outer space.

What has outer space done to deserve this?

[sidneyfox]

More infantile comments from core forum members concerning people they don't agree with. No wonder no-one pays any attention to this forum.

[Serial_Apologist]

More infantile comments from core forum members concerning people they don't agree with. No wonder no-one pays any attention to this forum.

Such as?

[french frank]

regardless of the not very relevant question of whether one or other member state is more or less democratic than the EU itself,

!!! It was an article entirely devoted to concerns about democracy.

it's a great deal easier to elect a national government with a commitment to expanding its commitment to democracy

!!!

than it would be to make the EU more democratic.

Possibly - but it was you who provided the link to an article about the EU's lack of democracy and said it was what made you veer toward 'euroscepticism'. I was merely focusing on what I thought, perhaps erroneously, was the main point of your post. But, you having posted an article on what someone else thinks about democracy and the EU, let me voice my own opinion on what I think is important and what makes me pro the EU:

I see the two major - and immediate - problems facing the world at the moment as being (not the destruction of capitalism): 1) the climate emergency and 2) the rise in right-wing populist/nationalist climate crisis-denying governments. Both must be combated on a wider level, rather than focusing on electing a government which will, hopefully, bring a socialist regime to the UK. So what I have against Jeremy Corbyn is that he does not have a strong commitment to the environment or PR (nor does the Labour party. Yes to reform of the HoL, which would benefit Labour, um possibly to reform of the voting system which might not benefit Labour).

On this basis, I think that the two parties best placed to tackle the global problems are the two pro-EU groupings which, together (including the AP in NI), topped the recent poll in terms of the popular vote: the Greens - whose top priority is the climate crisis but who are of the progressive left and pro PR, and the 'liberals' for whom the climate crisis comes probably joint first with policies that seek equality, social justice and reforming the UK's broken democracy. And on that final point, they were punished in 2015 - not for failing in their attempted democratic reforms but in attempting to do so in the first place by entering what most thought an unsavoury alliance.

And if one is concerned about 'democracy', the obviously most 'democratic' result of the 2010 election would have been, not a coalition of a major and a minor party, but a joint administration between Labour and Conservatives. ROFL, as they say.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And yet there are others who find us irresistable, sid ... just can't help themselves.

[sidneyfox]

And yet there are others who find us irresistable, sid ... just can't help themselves.

True, but it's a small, old unchanging longstanding group of people. Sidney, btw. Only my friends call me Sid.

[Serial_Apologist]

More infantile comments from core forum members concerning people they don't agree with. No wonder no-one pays any attention to this forum.

I think it is what is commonly known as having a sense of humour.