May is nearly out and so is May

[eighthobstruction]

....I'm more interested as to know (as ff intimated) whether JC is considered an autocrat - I certainly believe he has to lean towards autocracy within his party, in that its factionalism and polarisation mean he has to keep close secrets between 3-4 people, and deliver policy ingnoring the PLP....

[MrGongGong]

Yes, this "far left insurgency" narrative doesn't stand up to much scrutiny... I wonder what is so hard to believe about the idea that there are considerable numbers of people in the country whose opinions haven't been represented by any of the mainstream parties under the neoliberal consensus for many years now, and are now energised by the transformation Labour has undergone since Corbyn was elected leader.

I think if you ask many of the young folk (my own children's age) who WERE energised by Corbyns apparent enthusiasm for change and a more equitable society what they think of him now you will get a very different answer. Many of those who were ardent supporters have realised that he is more than happy to throw away our rights to FoM and would be quite content to take the UK out of the EU which will adversely affect those whom he claims to have empathy and compassion for.
He is hardly an "extremist" and has been given a rough ride by the media BUT sitting on the fence just gives you a sore bum.

Complicit in the mess we are in now, I'm afraid.
The Labour party have spent the last two years acting out a well known bit of Life of Brian when what we needed was an OPPOSITION.

[Richard Barrett]

I think if you ask many of the young folk

I always think solid evidence is useful when making claims like this!

[french frank]

I always think solid evidence is useful when making claims like this!

YouGov from last November:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/11/23/are-young-people-abandoning-labour

[MrGongGong]

YouGov from last November:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ndoning-labour

[teamsaint]

Labour has had its own problems on brexit, and has chosen to oppose where it can , how it can, and waiting and hoping that the tories will mess it and themselves up.
The six tests were a position taken to enable them to keep opposing a every stage. Alternative strategies might well ( in fact probably would ) have torn them apart , and lost them vital chunks of their heartland support . So opposition of a type born out of pragmatism and self preservation, and of course a recognition that the party is divided ( and has been for 50 years) on this cross party issue.
It has been hard enough for them to keep their own eurosceptics in check, ( the ones who could have helped enable brexit) and with 250 plus MPs, there are always going to be some dissidents.
I'm not an apologist for the way they have played this at every stage just saying how I interpret their actions.

[MrGongGong]

Labour has had its own problems on brexit, and has chosen to oppose where it can , how it can, and waiting and hoping that the tories will mess it and themselves up.
The six tests were a position taken to enable them to keep opposing a every stage. Alternative strategies might well ( in fact probably would have) have torn them apart , and lost them vital chunks of their heartland support . So opposition of a type born out of pragmatism and self preservation, and of course a recognition that the party is divided ( and has been for 50 years) on this cross party issue.
It has been hard enough for them to keep their own eurosceptics in check, ( the ones who could have helped enable brexit) and with 250 plus MPs, there are always going to be some dissidents.
I'm not an apologist for the way they have played this, just saying how I interpret their actions.

It seems clear that this has been a failure
People don't believe that lifetime opponent of the EU Corbyn wants anything other than Brexit
The sad thing is that even though most of their MPs know that it's a terrible idea they value their party and it's existence more than the people of the UK
I think many people have seen through the whole fence sitting strategy

[teamsaint]

It seems clear that this has been a failure
People don't believe that lifetime opponent of the EU Corbyn wants anything other than Brexit
The sad thing is that even though most of their MPs know that it's a terrible idea they value their party and it's existence more than the people of the UK
I think many people have seen through the whole fence sitting strategy

It might be clear to you, it's not clear to me at all. Brexit is a long way from happening, and the Tories face challenges to which there are no obvious solutions. Corbyn may be a lifelong eurosceptic, but he campaigned for remain, and in the end cannot, even if he wishes to, override the overwhelming opinion in the party.

The Labour party , its membership, but especially its support is divided on the issue. They have to deal with this , and try to stay alive and one step ahead of the tories.
Some Labour MPs may be acting out of fear for their own jobs rather than on principle. But in the main, the party has opposed in the best way it sees fit for the last couple of years.
I'm not really sure how the six tests , clearly designed to thwart anything other than the softest of Brexits, and never in any case likely to be met, is fence sitting. I'd call it tactics.

[MrGongGong]

It might be clear to you, it's not clear to me at all. Brexit is a long way from happening, and the Tories face challenges to which there are no obvious solutions. Corbyn may be a lifelong eurosceptic, but he campaigned for remain,.

In the same way that I enthusiastically try to promote the Oratorios of Elgar ?

Aint principles a great thing

People say that he is a man of principle etc BUT you have just said that he campaigned for something he fundamentally disagrees with ....... methinks he will need industrial quantities of Sudocrem

[teamsaint]

In the same way that I enthusiastically try to promote the Oratorios of Elgar ?

Aint principles a great thing

People say that he is a man of principle etc BUT you have just said that he campaigned for something he fundamentally disagrees with ....... methinks he will need industrial quantities of Sudocrem

Presumably he campaigned remain on the grounds of pragmatism . And being a eurosceptic ( in my book) doesn't necessarily mean you have to pursue a policy to leave at any cost.

I didn't say he campaigned for " something he fundamentally disagrees with". People sometimes have to compromise on principle.

[Richard Barrett]

This thread is adopting the same circular pattern as its predecessors, which is a shame.

[cloughie]

It might be clear to you, it's not clear to me at all. Brexit is a long way from happening, and the Tories face challenges to which there are no obvious solutions. Corbyn may be a lifelong eurosceptic, but he campaigned for remain, and in the end cannot, even if he wishes to, override the overwhelming opinion in the party.

The Labour party , its membership, but especially its support is divided on the issue. They have to deal with this , and try to stay alive and one step ahead of the tories.
Some Labour MPs may be acting out of fear for their own jobs rather than on principle. But in the main, the party has opposed in the best way it sees fit for the last couple of years.
I'm not really sure how the six tests , clearly designed to thwart anything other than the softest of Brexits, and never in any case likely to be met, is fence sitting. I'd call it tactics.

Yes, ts, but he campaigned half-heartedly, as did Cameron, for remain. No PM, since Heath, or for that matter any party other than the Lib Dems over the years has embraced our part in Europe. Can you remember any party, other than tan UKIP enthusiastically campaigning for Euro elections? UK has never striven to be leaders in Europe which has resulted in the Brexit mess we now face. Now if Brexit does not happen we have Farage and his Brexit Party being the leading lights for the UK, to get the best deal for the UK within the EU, whilst he and his MEPs are milking the gravy train. (Yes I know there is no milk in gravy!)

[Richard Barrett]

he campaigned half-heartedly

He was certainly portrayed in the media as doing so, yes. But then the media will always denigrate a nuanced argument about complex matters in favour of a black-and-white good vs. evil narrative, which is why Farage is always in the news.

[french frank]

He was certainly portrayed in the media as doing so, yes. But then the media will always denigrate a nuanced argument about complex matters in favour of a black-and-white good vs. evil narrative, which is why Farage is always in the news.

But he was on record as saying that if Labour won a General Election, Brexit would still happen, but under 'renegotiated terms' (which the EU has said would not be reopened under a new leader). That said, his position seems to be shifting. For all that, he isn't fully convincing Remainers in his own party:

" Unlike Starmer, Watson and John McDonnell, who offered an unambiguous endorsement of a second referendum this morning, Corbyn has not conceded that a general election is unattainable or committed to campaign for Remain in any fresh referendum - as his Scottish and Welsh counterparts, Richard Leonard and Mark Drakeford, did after results showed them losing ground to pro-EU nationalist parties.

"It is also unclear what question would be posed in the vote mooted by the leadership. Corbyn is likely to come under intense pressure to offer what one shadow minister described as “a full-throated endorsement of a second referendum with remain as an option, and Labour campaigning for it” from pro-referendum MPs in the coming days. His intervention this evening shows he is not quite there yet. But those MPs who favour a negotiated settlement are already alarmed that he appears to be heading, probably inexorably, in that direction. "

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/05/jeremy-corbyn-tells-labour-mps-we-are-ready-support-public-vote-any-deal

[cloughie]

He was certainly portrayed in the media as doing so, yes. But then the media will always denigrate a nuanced argument about complex matters in favour of a black-and-white good vs. evil narrative, which is why Farage is always in the news.

He campaigned half-heartedly. If he had campaigned vigorously that would have been reported widely because it would have been an outstandingly notable phenomenon in the referendum scenario!