Greta Thunberg at EU

[Richard Tarleton]

....I wonder how we will be allowed to make changes which might lead to sustainability when >>>>>>>1% of population own 50% of the land in uk....https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...downers-author

''''Surely this one% is going to really get in the way....

On a quick read-through - ownership does not necessarily have a bearing on food production - quite a lot of the land in question is owned by the few yet extremely productive food-wise (Dyson), some (Scottish Highlands) is of little or no use for food production (not saying the concentration of ownership isn't bad for all sorts of reasons, just that it's not necessarily relevant to the sustainability debate).

[eighthobstruction]

On a quick read-through - ownership does not necessarily have a bearing on food production - quite a lot of the land in question is owned by the few yet extremely productive food-wise (Dyson), some (Scottish Highlands) is of little or no use for food production (not saying the concentration of ownership isn't bad for all sorts of reasons, just that it's not necessarily relevant to the sustainability debate).

....as I say beyond my pay grade....food being of great importance....but also some change ref employment, production, what to produce....who gets what is produced, a definite need for more equality [or some might call it Equality] goes with sustainability surely....all things Transport, policy, production , use , who uses.... imaginative Community Hubs....and my goodness what to do with the Underclass....etc etc....Sustainability cannot be ppossible without some sort of Social form of Community....What of the Land Owners then [+ their private Security Forces....} Is Sustainability available to 62 Million persons....??

[Serial_Apologist]

....as I say beyond my pay grade....food being of great importance....but also some change ref employment, production, what to produce....who gets what is produced, a definite need for more equality [or some might call it Equality] goes with sustainability surely....all things Transport, policy, production , use , who uses.... imaginative Community Hubs....and my goodness what to do with the Underclass....etc etc....Sustainability cannot be ppossible without some sort of Social form of Community....What of the Land Owners then [+ their private Security Forces....} Is Sustainability available to 62 Million persons....??

I raised some of these issues earlier on this and many other threads on the forum. Totally blanked. Same the jazz bored. I may have caught the Lat syndrome. Do you ever get the idea you've outstayed your welcome here? 'cos I do.

[doversoul1]

I raised some of these issues earlier on this and many other threads on the forum. Totally blanked. Same the jazz bored. I may have caught the Lat syndrome. Do you ever get the idea you've outstayed your welcome here? 'cos I do.

I find your posts on these issues very interesting. However, having no basic, let alone advanced knowledge in the related fields makes it difficult to discuss or even respond. Do you think you could possibly make it, er...non-specialist friendly from time to time?

[Joseph K]

I found myself nodding in agreement while reading SA's posts on this thread. But I have not much further to add...

[Serial_Apologist]

I find your posts on these issues very interesting. However, having no basic, let alone advanced knowledge in the related fields makes it difficult to discuss or even respond. Do you think you could possibly make it, er...non-specialist friendly from time to time?

I will try. Rightly or wrongly I sometimes get the impression that making posts too long just puts people off, so I admit I do tend to resort to condensed ways of putting ideas across. It's hard to avoid when dealing multifaceted issues, and you don't want to leave anything out you think needs including in the thinking about a subject!

[teamsaint]

I will try. Rightly or wrongly I sometimes get the impression that making posts too long just puts people off, so I admit I do tend to resort to condensed ways of putting ideas across. It's hard to avoid when dealing multifaceted issues, and you don't want to leave anything out you think needs including in the thinking about a subject!

S-A, I usually take time to read your posts on such matters, but your knowledge of socialist and other Left theory and approaches is so far in advance of my own, that I don't usually have a response that would add any value. And though it it is nice for the writer to get a response, it can become tedious for all involved if a stream of " Thanks for an interesting post" type posts is the sole outcome.

To add a personal view on the thread, I usually find myself being conflicted between the kinds of approaches that you so eloquently outline ( and where my heart probably is), and approaches born out of experience driven by the day job, ( perhaps my head rather than heart ? ) of how we can make the best of and in a very flawed system, what you might call ( I suspect ) papering over the cracks.

[Serial_Apologist]

S-A, I usually take time to read your posts on such matters, but your knowledge of socialist and other Left theory and approaches is so far in advance of my own, that I don't usually have a response that would add any value. And though it it is nice for the writer to get a response, it can become tedious for all involved if a stream of " Thanks for an interesting post" type posts is the sole outcome.

To add a personal view on the thread, I usually find myself being conflicted between the kinds of approaches that you so eloquently outline ( and where my heart probably is), and approaches born out of experience driven by the day job, ( perhaps my head rather than heart ? ) of how we can make the best of and in a very flawed system, what you might call ( I suspect ) papering over the cracks.

It's not easy knowing at what level to "pitch" sometimes without risking being condescending and talking down. Probably because the issues we raise rarely are on the mass media, or only are fragmentarily.

[teamsaint]

It's not easy knowing at what level to "pitch" sometimes without risking being condescending and talking down.

You don't need a conversation on the finer points of political theory with somebody like me. Happy to read and learn, if that is any help.

Same prolly goes for Big Band Jazz .

[eighthobstruction]

....Having just watched Saving Mr Banks....about Mary Poppins S/A....all I can say is....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lXH9O94jak

[eighthobstruction]

>>>"This is all part of a much bigger systemic breakdown, the solution to which can only involve producing more locally and consuming less more sustainably - the science and technology for which, along with birth control, are already in existence. Weaning people off the means of temporary escape from the everyday of life as we know it will of course be difficult as long as there is ever-increasing reliance on travel to far off places, where populations are being drawn into so-called eco-tourism to fulfil national income requirements. On top of all this are the provisioned addictions of capitalist culture, designed to procure conformity to stereotypes that can be changed at an advertiser's whim, and which substitute consumption for creativity, in turn shaping and delimiting the popular to the instantly digestible. In a travestied inversion of values, what it means to be free is thereby invested in individual purchasing power, the delusory yet perennially vaunted freedom to choose.""<<<

....yeah what he said....S/a you should try being dyslexic for a day....actually makes certain things easier....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I found myself nodding in agreement while reading SA's posts on this thread. But I have not much further to add...

S-A, I usually take time to read your posts on such matters, but your knowledge of socialist and other Left theory and approaches is so far in advance of my own, that I don't usually have a response that would add any value. And though it it is nice for the writer to get a response, it can become tedious for all involved if a stream of " Thanks for an interesting post" type posts is the sole outcome.

Yes - that's sums up my own reaction - I should post the odd to confirm this, but this often seems rather inadequate - and I often intend to reply, and get a couple of paragraphs typed only to realize that I'm not communicating my thoughts well - or that I need to get my comments structured better - the ideas better expressed. Like this one, in fact

And I'm sure I'm not the only Forumista who realizes that one of S_A's posts needs more attention than the "banter"-type replies, or the "I'd get the Karajan if I were you"-type replies. I move away from them, intending to return with a reply - but by that time the conversation has moved on.

My silence does not mean that I don't value the posts greatly.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks to all for the replies. I hasten to say I'm not getting at anyone in particular, and it's not "me" taking any offense but rather someone, it could be anyone and perhaps should be, who just happens in this instance to be me trying to distil several streams of ideas from different sources into a comprehensive take on things I feel generally to be absent, or proceeding in different silos that are treated as if in total ignorance of each other.

The theory that everything goes together, interlinked and mutually inter-related belongs to several "disciplines" - in my case Taoism, Buddhism, Marxism, Ecology, certain strands of sociology and psychology - while other traditions are schismatic and divisive: I try and articulate points of connection and and explore that. I've been gathering evidence for my case now for more than fifty years - my book shelves, doubtless like others who contribute to this forum, representing a fount of the world's most elevated thinkings over the centuries. Maybe one day others will benefit from them!

I happen to think there to be a core underlier in common to most of what is wrong today, from which most else emanates, and for my bearings I tend to refer back to it. Sometimes discussions reach towards that point and then break off - the thread runs out of steam; events have "moved on" etc.; but the main principles underlying them are still in the driving seat! Now that the games players have left the forum and we can exchange views without misprepresentation, throwing wobblies or being abusive, this could be the good place to bring them together, roughly sums up my feelings about it all.

[Richard Tarleton]

You'll certainly find ecology, psychology and anthropology on my shelves, S_A I had a Buddhist and Taoist phase, some basic principles still inform my approach to life and the natural world, which has been my career.... I too read your posts carefully and sometimes find myself disagreeing with your political and social analysis so profoundly I think it's best not to start - and I mean that in the friendliest possible sense, that this is just a message board, behind every statement or line (on both sides) there is a lifetime of thought and learning which is difficult to get across in a few lines, I don't want to write essays which nobody is going to read and quite simply they take up too much time (I'm going out birdwatching in a minute ).

Just a (simplistic) word about the present demonstrations - now I've cooled down after my immediately deleted post the other day - the UK contributes about 1% of the world's carbon emissions, and we're not doing too badly in switching to renewables. China and India contribute the biggest shares, Indonesian, Malaysian and Brazilian rainforests are being cut down at a terrifying rate....but I'm not going to participate further in this discussion.

[Serial_Apologist]

You'll certainly find ecology, psychology and anthropology on my shelves, S_A I had a Buddhist and Taoist phase, some basic principles still inform my approach to life and the natural world, which has been my career.... I too read your posts carefully and sometimes find myself disagreeing with your political and social analysis so profoundly I think it's best not to start - and I mean that in the friendliest possible sense, that this is just a message board, behind every statement or line (on both sides) there is a lifetime of thought and learning which is difficult to get across in a few lines, I don't want to write essays which nobody is going to read and quite simply they take up too much time (I'm going out birdwatching in a minute ).

Hi Richard - yep, we've certainly nearly fallen out in the past! But for me the wasteful unsustainability of capitalism makes the "eastern philosophies" (for want of a better collective term!) and socialism "natural bedfellows". Perhaps our main disagreement would be how we get there - unless you maintain the idea of there being "no alternative" to the present system?

Just a (simplistic) word about the present demonstrations - now I've cooled down after my immediately deleted post the other day - the UK contributes about 1% of the world's carbon emissions, and we're not doing too badly in switching to renewables. China and India contribute the biggest shares, Indonesian, Malaysian and Brazilian rainforests are being cut down at a terrifying rate....but I'm not going to participate further in this discussion.

Well that's a shame! Maybe some other time. The argument I would use about any amelioration in Britain making up a miniscule contribution to overall betterment is that someone, somewhere, has to set an example and make a start - with campaigning up from the grass roots to get the word over on international stages where governments can be pressured to press for agreements: that old Green slogan encapsulated in "think global, act local".