Greta Thunberg at EU

[teamsaint]

I very much doubt that factory workers in Bangladesh, Turkey, and many other countries where products for the West are manufactured have any chance of having the benefit of such policy as worker control all the while there are demands from the West. But then, if we all stop buying these products, those people will lose their earnings. So what do we do?

Well to follow your suggestion, we can fairly easily look for signs of ethical supply chains. Of course these are complex and fluid, , and can be got round by the unscrupulous. But they are a big step forward IMO.
And we can change our own behaviours , as people have done with organic food. But the point here is that we have to incentivise people, as part of the package, or appeal to self interest.

When George Osborne was chancellor ( ! ) and relaxed the rules on pension funds, there were some economists who suggested this might be part of a move to tax more progressively on consumption, by moving tax away from what people earn, and to what they “ take out” of the system in cash terms. IIRC, this involved taxing money as it became available to spend, rather than when it was earned.Some interesting ideas, ( and doubtless benfitting the rich somehow) but I can’t find any references online just now.

Travel is already the battle ground, and although aviation is the big bad wolf, it just may be that that particular battle becomes a little less significant if electric cars( and green electricity production of course) starrt to make big inroads into CO2 emissions, and investment in national and local public transport is made more of a priority worldwide.

But CO2 is only part of the battle and possibly a somewhat distorting one IMO,in the sense that there are so many other areas of neglect in the media the dispersal of rubber particles from car tyres to name but one.

[Bryn]

. . . But CO2 is only part of the battle and possibly a somewhat distorting one IMO, in the sense that there are so many other areas of neglect in the media the dispersal of rubber particles from car tyres to name but one.

Would that such a policy regarding public transport was in place in the U.K. Instead, bus routes are being cut back, even in London.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/18/london-bus-cuts-to-hit-working-class-hardest-says-watchdog

https://www.shortlist.com/news/routes-london-bus-cuts-travel-transport-tfl/369607

Last week I was further advised by a driver that the C10 route was in line to be shortened from the current route between Victoria and Canada Water, to between Elephant and Castle and Canada Water. Route 10, between Hammersmith and Kings Cross, went last year.

That said, my local council (Tory-controlled) has been restoring and extending some services in the past few years.

[Serial_Apologist]

I very much doubt that factory workers in Bangladesh, Turkey, and many other countries where products for the West are manufactured have any chance of having the benefit of such policy as worker control all the while there are demands from the West. But then, if we all stop buying these products, those people will lose their earnings. So what do we do?

Capital always passes to the cheapest sources of supply and labour, this being intrinsic to the system's "success", which has little to do with improving ordinary people's living standards in the round, but persuading them to spend on stuff they only need when they're told they do and then telling them not to be greedy and "outprice their jobs" by expecting commensurate wage and salary increases when the anarchic nature of the system leads to surpluses worldwide, leading to redundancies, takeovers and asset stripping by capitalism's equivalent of vultures.

Having exhausted the profitability of largely Bangladeshi immigrants in the domestic textile industries of Lancashire, once they started clamouring for the wages demanded to keep the consumer capitalism that those languishing under communism were told spelt freedom afloat at home, the lessons of exporting these industries to far eastern countries where people work 16 hours a day in non-unionised sweatshop conditions were that solidarity across race, sex and national boundaries has much more than a moral imperative: it's about survival "at home".

[Serial_Apologist]

Would that such a policy regarding public transport was in place in the U.K. Instead, bus routes are being cut back, even in London.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/18/london-bus-cuts-to-hit-working-class-hardest-says-watchdog

https://www.shortlist.com/news/routes-london-bus-cuts-travel-transport-tfl/369607

Last week I was further advised by a driver that the C10 route was in line to be shortened from the current route between Victoria and Canada Water, to between Elephant and Castle and Canada Water. Route 10, between Hammersmith and Kings Cross, went last year.

That said, my local council (Tory-controlled) has been restoring and extending some services in the past few years.

This began happening very soon after bus services were privatised. I remember, in Bristol, cross-city services being terminated in favour of routes being radially directed to and from the city centre, resulting in travellers having to take two bus journeys, thereby paying twice as much for fares, the latter being quickly increased, exacerbating the problem for poorer passengers. For a short while conductors bravely refused to collect the increased fares - a good step in the direction of worker control over pricing, albeit temporary - but iirc the companies then took court injunctions against the action; and in any case, driver-only buses were subsequently introduced. Todays ongoing disputes over driver-only trains are the sequel to all this, just at a time when the social consequences of under-investment in other vital areas of infrastructure are resulting in increased levels of crime, and we are all having to accept CCTV intrusion into our every footstep for our own safety. Of course, the more automation/robotisation that can be introduced to raise the prodoctivity to levels needed to sustain the ever-escalating salaried lifestyles of the oh-so-clever people at the top, the better, because their carbon footprint is minimal compared to the rest of ours, doncha know?

[Serial_Apologist]

Worker control of manufacturing policy is one of the foundations of cooperation in the real sense...one member one vote, common ownership and an effective communications system within the cooperative enterprise.
OK, I know it is extremely hard work and cumbersome and complicated but I don’t know of any other solution. It has to grow slowly from the ground up. Once we are educated into it we can’t imagine another way of doing things.

One of the objections to worker's control being concerned with practicality - I know. There are decisions which have to be taken at a moment's notice, as for instance were such a system to be threatened with sabotage - which is not as unlikely as it seems, given the anger of the ruling classes over being liberated of their powers and profligate lifestyles. For such eventualities provision will of course have to be accounted, in every meaning of the term. But the intrinsic values incurred in sustainable long-term interests of inclusivity, along with the sense of responsibility evinced by involvement and optimising individual creativity, and the more protracted feedbacks involved in meeting communally agreed needs re products, sustainability, rates and levels of investment and timelines, must surely amount to a plus for future life on the planet when compared to today's stressed out, must keep up with the competitor, just-in-time rate race.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well to follow your suggestion, we can fairly easily look for signs of ethical supply chains. Of course these are complex and fluid, , and can be got round by the unscrupulous. But they are a big step forward IMO.
And we can change our own behaviours , as people have done with organic food. But the point here is that we have to incentivise people, as part of the package, or appeal to self interest.

When George Osborne was chancellor ( ! ) and relaxed the rules on pension funds, there were some economists who suggested this might be part of a move to tax more progressively on consumption, by moving tax away from what people earn, and to what they “ take out” of the system in cash terms. IIRC, this involved taxing money as it became available to spend, rather than when it was earned.Some interesting ideas, ( and doubtless benfitting the rich somehow) but I can’t find any references online just now.

The biggest issue of course is the massive financial sector rigged up to sustain the present profligate economic system, with its superfluity of value directed to what is effectively gambling via its stock and money markets and in notorious instances asset stripping, eg basically destroying capital, livelihoods, and otherwise adaptable buildings merely in order to create new capital advantages, thus repeating the never ending desperate cycle of waste. Some other way has yet to be thought up and discussed as to how genuine wealth can be created, money still being needed to manage the flow of produce, and distributed fairly and equitably; and my bet is that far less of the stuff would be needed were civilisation to be more rationally organised, down-scaled. Otherwise solutions amount to no more than sticking plasters over gaping wounds.

Travel is already the battle ground, and although aviation is the big bad wolf, it just may be that that particular battle becomes a little less significant if electric cars( and green electricity production of course) starrt to make big inroads into CO2 emissions, and investment in national and local public transport is made more of a priority worldwide.

But CO2 is only part of the battle and possibly a somewhat distorting one IMO,in the sense that there are so many other areas of neglect in the media the dispersal of rubber particles from car tyres to name but one.

This is all part of a much bigger systemic breakdown, the solution to which can only involve producing more locally and consuming less more sustainably - the science and technology for which, along with birth control, are already in existence. Weaning people off the means of temporary escape from the everyday of life as we know it will of course be difficult as long as there is ever-increasing reliance on travel to far off places, where populations are being drawn into so-called eco-tourism to fulfil national income requirements. On top of all this are the provisioned addictions of capitalist culture, designed to procure conformity to stereotypes that can be changed at an advertiser's whim, and which substitute consumption for creativity, in turn shaping and delimiting the popular to the instantly digestible. In a travestied inversion of values, what it means to be free is thereby invested in individual purchasing power, the delusory yet perennially vaunted freedom to choose.

[Jazzrook]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/15/rebellion-prevent-ecological-apocalypse-civil-disobedience

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-disobedience

JR

Really good discussion on Any Answers just now - really engaging with the questions and issues Monbiot raises in that article. I felt heartened, for the first time in years.

[Padraig]

When you think about it, do we really need to be told by Google what to give up or what to do/not to do? These days we seem to be far more interested in what comes up in the media, including Miss Thunberg speech, than with what we are physically involved in our daily lives.

Whatever the solution, doversoul, when one emerges, we will all have to do our bit as individuals. Getting our personal contribution sorted needs organisation, and Google can be useful. I was surprised to find that I was doing more than I thought, and have learned some things that I will have to accept like everybody else - some red lines will have to be crossed by us all.

Greta would have us believe that in general the media don't do very much for this cause, but however much they do is useful for giving us ideas, and letting us know how effective their efforts are in influencing politicians, governments and big business - or not.

Greta herself is much more of an international force than her European Parliament speech suggested. She's all over you tube and has talked with many groups and organisations. She has also been a leading influence in getting school pupils active - all news to me - and encouraging news too.

I have come to this struggle a bit late in the day but seeing the energy being released by young people all over the world, and the dedication of Greta and her family in trying to educate and motivate people about this crisis, I say: "It's Never Too Late".

[doversoul1]

Whatever the solution, doversoul, when one emerges, we will all have to do our bit as individuals. Getting our personal contribution sorted needs organisation, and Google can be useful. I was surprised to find that I was doing more than I thought, and have learned some things that I will have to accept like everybody else - some red lines will have to be crossed by us all.

Greta would have us believe that in general the media don't do very much for this cause, but however much they do is useful for giving us ideas, and letting us know how effective their efforts are in influencing politicians, governments and big business - or not.

Greta herself is much more of an international force than her European Parliament speech suggested. She's all over you tube and has talked with many groups and organisations. She has also been a leading influence in getting school pupils active - all news to me - and encouraging news too.

I have come to this struggle a bit late in the day but seeing the energy being released by young people all over the world, and the dedication of Greta and her family in trying to educate and motivate people about this crisis, I say: "It's Never Too Late".

Climate Change for Dummies

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20181102-what-can-i-do-about-climate-change

[ed.] I see, Miss Thunberg is Vegan. In Sweden. This shouldn’t matter, or should it?

[eighthobstruction]

....I wonder how we will be allowed to make changes which might lead to sustainability when >>>>>>>1% of population own 50% of the land in uk....https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...downers-author

''''Surely this one% is going to really get in the way....

[DracoM]

Yes, well said. spotted that article myself. Grievously depressing.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes, well said. spotted that article myself. Grievously depressing.

....I guess these are the same people who bang on about [rampant] growth....surely there is some type of equation or possibility of one which can provide a picture of a balance between growth and sustainability....Surely there are folk with a vision of a 50 year Plan to navigate a way a future that has some legs to it.... <last phrase - sure to be a candidate for Teeth Grating Thread>....

....I can ask the questions , but the answers beyond my pay ghrade....

[doversoul1]

I saw the article. It sounds like a dystopian SF.

[eighthobstruction]

I saw the article. It sounds like a dystopian SF.

....well I'm afraid our very very lucky generation - in the best of all possible worlds will have to put up with a bit of dystopian....for goodness sake we have had the bounty of the best education, music, diet, health, travel, ease....etc etc blaa blaa....throwing around a few pesimistic views and ideas isn't going to do us any harm....we have had a banquet, lets clear up afterwards....