Notre-Dame, Paris

[teamsaint]

Please don’t take this argument personally, ff. I know how I would feel if ever the Roman lighthouse at Dover castle were destroyed.

It’s just that something niggles me. I think if I put very crudely what I am wondering at, it is: the government declared restoration and massive donations were offered within a few hours while people poured out their griefs. Are our memories of and affections to a building albeit very special one, more valuable than people’s lives?

I know we can’t save all tragedies in the world but it makes me wonder all the same.

[ed.] I admit this sounds absurd but I suppose Art is an absurd thing that humans have/do.

Buildings, and the travel required to see them, have become a really major part of consumer culture. Relatively cheap air travel is one factor that has enabled this. And I am as “ guilty” as anybody. When I was a child, Stonehenge was a place that locals went for a picnic , and a few tourists passed by from time to time. Today it costs £20 if you pre book, and in surveys is the #1 UK tourist destination, though I don’t think this translates into actual visit numbers.
Consumer culture is terribly powerful, and this I think is part of the reason for the strength of reaction. Notre Dame , like many others is sort of celebrity building, in an age that gives undue importance to celebrity.

[Bryn]

Buildings, and the travel required to see them, have become a really major part of consumer culture. Relatively cheap air travel is one factor that has enabled this. And I am as “ guilty” as anybody. When I was a child, Stonehenge was a place that locals went for a picnic , and a few tourists passed by from time to time. Today it costs £20 if you pre book, and in surveys is the #1 UK tourist destination, though I don’t think this translates into actual visit numbers.
Consumer culture is terribly powerful, and this I think is part of the reason for the strength of reaction. Notre Dame , like many others is sort of celebrity building, in an age that gives undue importance to celebrity.

Yes. I remember clambering over those stones on the ground, as a child. The proposed reconstruction of Notre Dame prompts me to suggest restoring Stonehenge to its original design.

[french frank]

Are our memories of and affections to a building albeit very special one, more valuable than people’s lives?

I know we can’t save all tragedies in the world but it makes me wonder all the same.

No offence taken - as I said it was something I was discussing earlier, and trying to understand what I and others feel. One thing, I suppose, no amount of money (since you mention that) will restore people to life. And in any case, to answer equally crudely, yes, my memories are more valuable to me than the lives of people who I never even knew existed until I learned that they had died. That doesn't prevent one feeling angry as one discovers that a tragedy should never have happened and is down to culpable actions by others; nor does it prevent one feeling deep sympathy for those who have lost people they loved. So it's different emotions for a different circumstance. More philosophically, perhaps there is the knowledge that all human life ends in death eventually, so it isn't the fact that someone has died but the immediate circumstances of why and how.

The more people there were who knew the victims of a tragedy, the more there are to grieve for them; and the more people for whom this building held some significance, the more there were to feel devastated - especially when yesterday the talk was of it being totally destroyed. It is a personal loss in the way that the death of strangers isn't.

[Nick Armstrong]

To give it its due, the "Mixtape" at 7pm on Tuesday was a thoughtfully put-together sequence of 'Music for Notre-Dame' which I shall listen to again....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000488l

[Richard Tarleton]

I was revisiting my youth: my youth is past but there was Notre Dame, the same as ever, unchanging and unchangeable after so many centuries.

Tho I see the present spire was the work of Viollet-le-Duc in the 19thC, replacing an earlier one.....

http://www.victorianweb.org/art/architecture/vld/3.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/16/story-behind-towering-notre-dame-spire-year-old-architect-commissioned-build-it/?utm_term=.4947d606515b

The cathedral was in a pretty dilapidated state then, and the restoration work took 19 years ....the state of the cathedral has reflected what has gone on around it in French life (war, revolution....). I suppose in the end cathedrals are always works in progress, never finished, this is far from being the first fire there. President Macron's 5 years sounds a bit tight, but is apparently driven by the dates of the Olympics, and re-election (according to a French journalist interviewed on Today ). Interesting that it's the property of the French state (?), which makes politicians more directly accountable.

As with the altogether more trivial example of Uppark (mentioned above) and - another random example that occurs - the Cutty Sark fire in 2007, once the initial horror has subsided these things have a way of morphing into positive reconstruction and training projects, with a major boost to employment and the revival of all sorts of traditional crafts. Given that people have to work for a living, this is probably quite a positive thing for them to be doing.

My sentiments probably not unlike yours ff - it was the first thing I went to see when I spent time in Paris in 1967, though the present-day me only crosses Paris by metro between railway stations.....No.2 niece lives in Paris, I'm waiting to hear her experience of it all.

[oddoneout]

To give it its due, the "Mixtape" at 7pm on Tuesday was a thoughtfully put-together sequence of 'Music for Notre-Dame' which I shall listen to again....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000488l

Normally I do my best to avoid this bit of the schedule, but decided yesterday to give it a chance and am glad I did - as you say thoughtfully put together.

[BBMmk2]

To give it its due, the "Mixtape" at 7pm on Tuesday was a thoughtfully put-together sequence of 'Music for Notre-Dame' which I shall listen to again....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000488l

Thanks for that Cali. I’ll catch up with that one.

Thank goodness the Le Grande Cavaille-Coll Organ is save.

[Richard Barrett]

So it's different emotions for a different circumstances.

This is true. And yet... one of the factors contrributing to anger regarding the Grenfell fire is that the fact it happened, and what happened in the aftermath, and what is still happening in terms of making similar builingd up and down the country safe for habitation, are symptoms of a more systemic greed and inequality. It's not just about someone else's loved ones being lost, but also despair at the state of a society that is constructed so as to make such things likely. It's the very visible tip of an iceberg. As such it dwarfs the loss of an "iconic" building which of course would have been reconstructed even if it had burned to the ground, and I say that having just as much attachment to NDdP as anyone else, remembering very clearly the first time I saw it as well as many other encounters. Also, humanity is destroying its own conditions for continued existence in a way that might well cause future generations to view the grief over the damage to a single building as a somewhat pathetic symptom of how the people of our time had their priorities upside down. Different circumstances, yes, but they're all connected.

[french frank]

And yet... one of the factors contrributing to anger regarding the Grenfell fire is that the fact it happened

And the general horror of the whole event, intensified by the loss of life of strangers; and round it a penumbra of related feelings, from human compassion to political anger; nothing for the destruction of the tower itself, but a rather wan hope that this will be the event which ensures such a thing will never happen again.

Emotions surrounding Grenfell are much more complex than the emotion poured out over Notre Dame: partly, this was our human history going up in flames: on a secular plane, the lives and work of people who were moulders of our own civilisation - and how are the non-religious to appreciate what it meant to Christians/Catholics at the beginning of Holy Week, already a roller-coaster of religious emotion?

To me (at least!) it is more understandable than the wide public outpouring of grief at the death of Princess Diana. But she meant something to a lot of people, whereas to me it was just another sad death of a celebrity.

[MrGongGong]

From "stalkerbook" which some of you might want to read but resist the beast

Chers tous,

En ces moments tragiques pour la Cathédrale, vous avez été extrêmement nombreux à m’envoyer des mots de soutien, plus émouvants les uns que les autres, soit par e-mail, soit par SMS, FaceBook, Instagram ou en téléphonant.
Je ne vous remercierai jamais pour cela. J’aurais aimé pouvoir répondre personnellement à chacun d’entre vous, mais eu égard aux urgences dues à la situation, cela ne m’est malheureusement pas possible, du moins pour l’instant. J’espère que vous ne m’en tiendrez pas rigueur.

Notre-Dame, qui avait résisté aux révolutions, aux guerres, est partie en fumée en quelques instants. 855 ans disparus en quatre heures… Comme vous, je ressens une énorme tristesse, de la colère contenue, un abattement total. Les images qui nous sont données à voir sont atroces. Comment ne pas croire à un mauvais rêve? La réalité nous rattrape malheureusement durement.

Malgré tous les dommages qu’a subis la Cathédrale, l’orgue a miraculeusement échappé aux flammes, et aussi à l’eau censée les éteindre. Il est très empoussiéré, mais pourra continuer à nous émouvoir dès lors que son écrin aura retrouvé sa magnificence. Quand? Nul ne le sait aujourd’hui. « Détruisez ce temple et en trois jours je le relèverai. » est-il dit dans l’Evangile de Saint-Jean. Ca prendra sûrement plus de temps à Notre-Dame, mais j’ai confiance et espoir.

Avec toutes mes amicales pensées.

Olivier Latry

Dear all,

In these tragic moments for the Cathedral, you have been extremely numerous to send kind words of support, all more moving than the others, either by e-mail, SMS, FaceBook, Instagram or on the phone.

I will never thank you enough for that. I would have liked to respond personally to each of you, but given the urgency of the situation, it is unfortunately not possible for me, at least for the moment. I hope you’ll understand.

Notre-Dame, who had resisted revolutions and wars, burned in a few moments. 855 years destroyed in four hours ... Like you, I feel terribly sad, with contained rage, total sorrow. The images that we have seen are horrible. How not to think that we are in a bad dream? Reality comes back to us, unfortunately.

Despite all the damage in the Cathedral, the organ miraculously escaped the flames, as well as the water supposed to extinguish them. It is very dusty, but will continue to enjoy us as soon as the building will be restored. When? No one knows yet. « Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. » (John, 2). It will surely take more time in Notre-Dame, but I still live with great confidence and hope.

With warmest regards.

Olivier Latry

[Beresford]

Thank goodness the Le Grande Cavaille-Coll Organ is save.

If it had been destroyed, I might have suggested offering the Cavaille-Coll organ from the Parr Hall in Warrington, as it is hardly ever played, although much loved by a few stalwarts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

And the general horror of the whole event, intensified by the loss of life of strangers; and round it a penumbra of related feelings, from human compassion to political anger; nothing for the destruction of the tower itself, but a rather wan hope that this will be the event which ensures such a thing will never happen again.

Emotions surrounding Grenfell are much more complex than the emotion poured out over Notre Dame: partly, this was our human history going up in flames: on a secular plane, the lives and work of people who were moulders of our own civilisation - and how are the non-religious to appreciate what it meant to Christians/Catholics at the beginning of Holy Week, already a roller-coaster of religious emotion?

To me (at least!) it is more understandable than the wide public outpouring of grief at the death of Princess Diana. But she meant something to a lot of people, whereas to me it was just another sad death of a celebrity.

It does seem odd that the NDdeP charitable total now stands at a billion euros whereas the total raised for the victims of Grenfell stands at 28 million pounds. Is it it because French tax laws are more generous when it comes to charitable donations ? Is there an element of competition between the ultra rich plutocrats who have given so generously? As a global symbol of faith is the Cathedral a more charitably compelling phenomenon than the deaths of eighty people? I hope it’s not the latter as that would seem to fly in the face of the teachings of the very figure the Cathedral is intended to celebrate and worship.

[french frank]

It does seem odd that the NDdeP charitable total now stands at a billion euros whereas the total raised for the victims of Grenfell stands at 28 million pounds. Is it it because French tax laws are more generous when it comes to charitable donations ? Is there an element of competition between the ultra rich plutocrats who have given so generously?

It sounded very like it as far as the top two donors were concerned. But isn't to deny that they might also have been very devout Catholics and could well afford it to the point where they hardly noticed it.

As a global symbol of faith is the Cathedral a more charitably compelling phenomenon than the deaths of eighty people?

Not quite a fair comparison (beyond the fire similarity). How many people worldwide contributed to the US victims funds set up after mass shooting in Las Vegas or Orlando? Lost lives are first and foremost private tragedies, whereas - however questionable it may seem, tha cathedral was a building loved and valued by the public, worldwide.

[doversoul1]

It does seem odd that the NDdeP charitable total now stands at a billion euros whereas the total raised for the victims of Grenfell stands at 28 million pounds. Is it it because French tax laws are more generous when it comes to charitable donations ? Is there an element of competition between the ultra rich plutocrats who have given so generously? As a global symbol of faith is the Cathedral a more charitably compelling phenomenon than the deaths of eighty people? I hope it’s not the latter as that would seem to fly in the face of the teachings of the very figure the Cathedral is intended to celebrate and worship.

It must have looked to the donors as if the fire were a God sent opportunity for publicity (well at least partly). They could have donated anonymously.

[MrGongGong]

As a global symbol of faith is the Cathedral a more charitably compelling phenomenon than the deaths of eighty people? I hope it’s not the latter as that would seem to fly in the face of the teachings of the very figure the Cathedral is intended to celebrate and worship.

Indeed

and (from elsewhere)

At risk of stating the obvious: why couldn't the power of prayer put out the flames at Notre Dame?

I think it's probably worth making a distinction between culture and belief.
So, when working, as I do frequently, in religious buildings and with elements of the church(es) I would see it as very much part of my culture but not my belief.
There ARE some "real" Christians about but they tend to simply get on with it rather than make grand statements etc