Notre-Dame, Paris

[Keraulophone]

Resurgam was the word placed above the porch of the bombed and burnt- out St Andrew’s Minster in Plymouth In 1941... Notre Dame has a choir organ as well.

St Andrew’s proudly displays ‘RESURGAM’ in stone above a doorway. It’s an inspiring comparison, by contrast to the decision at Coventry to build a modern equivalent instead. The lonely spire and ruins of Charles Church marooned on a roundabout overlooking Plymouth’s Drake Circus Shopping Centre is a permanent reminder of the fire-bombing. The rebuilding of Dresden’s Frauenkirche sixty years after its near-total wartime destruction is the most determined example I can recall of the complete ‘resurgem’ of a church, costing €180m. An attempt was made to replace the Silbermann organ with a Kern instrument that included the previous specification, but of course its sound cannot be the same.

Despite reports that the grand orgue at Notre Dame might be saveable, judging purely from the intensity of the fire above the quire, I’d be amazed if the same can be said of the choir organ. It is or was a notable 30-stop two manual and pedal instrument well able to support a choir of any size, even having its own defiant little chamade trumpet. Here is its organist, Johann Vexo, making a Bach trio sonata sound very beautiful in the huge acoustic: https://youtu.be/ySnWvXDp_jQ

[ahinton]

St Andrew’s proudly displays ‘RESURGAM’ in stone above a doorway. It’s an inspiring comparison, by contrast to the decision at Coventry to build a modern equivalent instead. The lonely spire and ruins of Charles Church marooned on a roundabout overlooking Plymouth’s Drake Circus Shopping Centre is a permanent reminder of the fire-bombing. The rebuilding of Dresden’s Frauenkirche sixty years after its near-total wartime destruction is the most determined example I can recall of the complete ‘resurgem’ of a church, costing €180m. An attempt was made to replace the Silbermann organ with a Kern instrument that included the previous specification, but of course its sound cannot be the same.

Despite reports that the grand orgue at Notre Dame might be saveable, judging purely from the intensity of the fire above the quire, I’d be amazed if the same can be said of the choir organ. It is or was a notable 30-stop two manual and pedal instrument well able to support a choir of any size, even having its own defiant little chamade trumpet. Here is its organist, Johann Vexo, making a Bach trio sonata sound very beautiful in the huge acoustic: https://youtu.be/ySnWvXDp_jQ

The likelihood seems to be that the worst of any damage to the organ will be to the leatherwork and the electrics and, of course, some of this will be water damage. I noticed in a couple of photos that it doesn't have full compass manuals as does (I believe) St. Eustache - but then few French organs do, even the larger ones.

[Keraulophone]

The likelihood seems to be that the worst of any damage to the organ will be to the leatherwork and the electrics and, of course, some of this will be water damage. I noticed in a couple of photos that it doesn't have full compass manuals as does (I believe) St. Eustache - but then few French organs do, even the larger ones.

It would be very difficult to assess the damage to the grand orgue before anyone is allowed up in the tribune, but if the pipework has survived, as seems to be the case, then the organ can be rebuilt. I have heard that the choir organ may also have been saved from the fire, though one would have thought that water damage would be worse at its ground floor level.

French organs have shorter a compass than ours. NDdP has 56 manual (C-g) and 32 pedal notes (C-g) in common not just with Cavallé-Coll organs, but also many more modern ones. However, the late Jean Guillou made sure his new Dutch ‘super-organ’ would have a full 61M/32P compass. Several compass variations can be found. The Father Willis in Truro Cathedral has 61M/30P, i.e. only up to pedal f, whereas the French usually go to g, but exceptions like the Hereford Willis stop at a (58M) and f (30P). The ‘normal’ full compass in England, as for example in Westminster Abbey, is 61M/32P.

[Richard Barrett]

I'm certainly learning things here about organs I didn't know about before! Well, it seems like the building can be reconstructed so there will be a happy ending to the story. I didn't really doubt it - when I first visited Dresden in 1991 the Frauenkirche (along with much of the surrounding) was basically not much more than a heap of stones, and reconstructing it to its present state must have been an incredibly complex undertaking.

I'm bound to say, though, speaking of heaps of stones, that there seems to me something wrong with the public outpouring of grief over the partial destruction of this particular one, even given its place in history and in the hearts of so many people, of musicians in particular (the last time I was there I chanced on a performance of solo viol music by Marais, including "Les voix humaines", which was an inexpressibly beautiful experience), when human lives are ruined and destroyed all over the world every day as a result of the workings of "the system" to which we're so inured that little or no response occurs, let alone people singing hymns in the street etc. It's almost as if an event like this comes as a kind of relief since it enables people to engage in collective grieving without fear of any political complications or any pressure to "do something". Sorry for sounding pompous, it just came out that way, it's sadness really that there's such an imbalance between the fuss made about heaps of stones (originally erected, of course, as a symbol of power of the few over the many) as opposed to about human suffering.

[doversoul1]

I'm certainly learning things here about organs I didn't know about before! Well, it seems like the building can be reconstructed so there will be a happy ending to the story. I didn't really doubt it - when I first visited Dresden in 1991 the Frauenkirche (along with much of the surrounding) was basically not much more than a heap of stones, and reconstructing it to its present state must have been an incredibly complex undertaking.

I'm bound to say, though, speaking of heaps of stones, that there seems to me something wrong with the public outpouring of grief over the partial destruction of this particular one, even given its place in history and in the hearts of so many people, of musicians in particular (the last time I was there I chanced on a performance of solo viol music by Marais, including "Les voix humaines", which was an inexpressibly beautiful experience), when human lives are ruined and destroyed all over the world every day as a result of the workings of "the system" to which we're so inured that little or no response occurs, let alone people singing hymns in the street etc. It's almost as if an event like this comes as a kind of relief since it enables people to engage in collective grieving without fear of any political complications or any pressure to "do something". Sorry for sounding pompous, it just came out that way, it's sadness really that there's such an imbalance between the fuss made about heaps of stones (originally erected, of course, as a symbol of power of the few over the many) as opposed to about human suffering.

After the first shock, much the same thought occurred to me. And this:

The French billionaire Bernard Arnault announced on Tuesday that he and the LVMH luxury conglomerate he controls would donate €200m (£170m) to the reconstruction efforts.
The pledge came after the rival fashion group Kering, founded by the billionaire François Pinault, offered €100m to help “completely rebuild Notre Dame”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/hundreds-millions-pledged-help-rebuild-notre-dame-after-fire

A marked contrast with the other fire when families' homes were burned and people died.

Is this something that Art does to us?

[cloughie]

As with the Windsor Castle fire of 1992.

But I wonder if the French news media covered it very much!

[cloughie]

I reckon they did. Many European countries are fascinated by the British Royal family. Especially the Germans who have given Britain their own Royal family - you know, the long term inhabitants of Buck House and funded by the British tax payer.

Aye, mebbe!

[Serial_Apologist]

After the first shock, much the same thought occurred to me. And this:

The French billionaire Bernard Arnault announced on Tuesday that he and the LVMH luxury conglomerate he controls would donate €200m (£170m) to the reconstruction efforts.
The pledge came after the rival fashion group Kering, founded by the billionaire François Pinault, offered €100m to help “completely rebuild Notre Dame”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/hundreds-millions-pledged-help-rebuild-notre-dame-after-fire

A marked contrast with the other fire when families' homes were burned and people died.

Is this something that Art does to us?

I would say that it is not art per se, but, in part, the way art in societies built on unequal power relations is used, and is in itself shaped by those relations. Religion to an even greater extent has always been used to exonerate complicity with the ruling order, explaining as it so often does the need for "higher controls" in terms of human weakness, and the concomitant need for "salvation", which, mired in nature as we are, of course, we're not entitled to presume for "this" life.

[ahinton]

French organs have shorter a compass than ours.

Than most of ours in UK, yes.

NDdP has 56 manual (C-g) and 32 pedal notes (C-g) in common not just with Cavallé-Coll organs, but also many more modern ones. However, the late Jean Guillou made sure his new Dutch ‘super-organ’ would have a full 61M/32P compass. Several compass variations can be found. The Father Willis in Truro Cathedral has 61M/30P, i.e. only up to pedal f, whereas the French usually go to g, but exceptions like the Hereford Willis stop at a (58M) and f (30P). The ‘normal’ full compass in England, as for example in Westminster Abbey, is 61M/32P.

Indeed so. It's sad that the wonderful Hereford intrument is short compass in both manuals and pedals, although the software firm Hauptwerk has nevertheless created samples from it.

[Nevilevelis]

Technicien-conseil of the grand orgue of Notre Dame, Eric Brottier, has reported:

"First observations of the instrument of Notre-Dame, including in the interior, show that the organ has visibly (I insist on that term) not truly suffered from the fire. It was preserved from the water spillage thanks to the covering flagstones between the towers, and did not suffer from the heat (the pipes are structurally preserved).
These reassuring informations should be substantiated by an in-depth examination that has not yet, of course, been able to be realized."

Original: "Les premières observations sur l'instrument de Notre-Dame, y compris à l'intérieur, montrent que l'orgue n'a visiblement (j'insiste sur le terme) pas véritablement souffert de l'incendie. Il a été préservé des écoulements d'eau grâce à la dalle de couverture entre les tours et n'a pas souffert de la chaleur (les tuyaux sont structurellement préservés).
Ces informations rassurantes devront être étayées par un constat approfondi qui n'a bien sûr pas encore pu être réalisé."

I hold onto hope that these further explorations will confirm and illuminate such positive findings.

(with many thanks to Thomas Monnet for sharing this quotation)

[french frank]

A marked contrast with the other fire when families' homes were burned and people died.

Is this something that Art does to us?

I was discussing this with my brother this morning. Isn't there something about the intensity of the grief of the few: one can sympathise, one can empathise but one does not share the identical feeling as those who have lost (is there a day goes by when we don't hear that someone has died tragically?). Richard's 'heaps of stones'? Who can say what they mean to millions, probably billions of people around the world who share the identical feeling of loss. Who can understand what the building might mean to others if one doesn't instinctively share the same feelings and emotions.

[oddoneout]

I was discussing this with my brother this morning. Isn't there something about the intensity of the grief of the few: one can sympathise, one can empathise but one does not share the identical feeling as those who have lost (is there a day goes by when we don't hear that someone has died tragically?). Richard's 'heaps of stones'? Who can say what they mean to millions, probably billions of people around the world who share the identical feeling of loss. Who can understand what the building might mean to others if one doesn't instinctively share the same feelings and emotions.

Might it also have something to do with regarding 'heaps of stones' as fixed and therefore comforting /reassuring points in a shifting and uncertain world, a subconscious reference point. Those for whom the function of MDdP is of no concern can still be moved or upset by the disappearance of that part of their internal or external life. It is less easy to avoid seeing what has happened, unlike human tragedies which can all too often be or become invisible.

[french frank]

Might it also have something to do with regarding 'heaps of stones' as fixed and therefore comforting /reassuring points in a shifting and uncertain world, a subconscious reference point. Those for whom the function of MDdP is of no concern can still be moved or upset by the disappearance of that part of their internal or external life. It is less easy to avoid seeing what has happened, unlike human tragedies which can all too often be or become invisible.

Yes, I think the comparison with the Grenfell Tower is simply because both were fires. Why not compare it with the Manchester bombing? Or any accident that involves loss of life? Or terminal illness? Speedng past Notre Dame in a taxi last month, I was revisiting my youth: my youth is past but there was Notre Dame, the same as ever, unchanging and unchangeable after so many centuries. And it was the one thing I managed to snatch some photos of.

[DracoM]

Or York Minster?

[doversoul1]

Yes, I think the comparison with the Grenfell Tower is simply because both were fires. Why not compare it with the Manchester bombing? Or any accident that involves loss of life? Or terminal illness? Speedng past Notre Dame in a taxi last month, I was revisiting my youth: my youth is past but there was Notre Dame, the same as ever, unchanging and unchangeable after so many centuries. And it was the one thing I managed to snatch some photos of.

Please don’t take this argument personally, ff. I know how I would feel if ever the Roman lighthouse at Dover castle were destroyed.

It’s just that something niggles me. I think if I put very crudely what I am wondering at, it is: the government declared restoration and massive donations were offered within a few hours while people poured out their griefs. Are our memories of and affections to a building albeit very special one, more valuable than people’s lives?

I know we can’t save all tragedies in the world but it makes me wonder all the same.

[ed.] I admit this sounds absurd but I suppose Art is an absurd thing that humans have/do.