Americanisation of BBC Radio 4

[Serial_Apologist]

Sorry - forgot to 'analyse' Ms. Hyde's essay, as per your request.

I found myself antagonised by it from the the first sentence, where she basically announces that this will not be a serious article. The use of teenage phrases like 'geeky' show her hand somewhat and it's hard to resist the feeling that she's taking an inappropriately light-hearted look at at very grim subject. I fear Ms. Hyde is often undermined by her own 'sense of humour', which has been the downfall of so many British writers, by no means all of them women. George Orwell once praised George Gissing for not suffering from this besetting national flaw.

These people are far too far above our level of knowledge and/or intelligence to need to explain what the Malthouse compromise is.

[Conchis]

The BBC's news website has just relegated the story about the seven Labour defections to make its headline item one about the U.S. being in conflict with the boss of a Chinese firm. There seems to be a (tangential) British angle.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry - forgot to 'analyse' Ms. Hyde's essay, as per your request.

I found myself antagonised by it from the the first sentence, where she basically announces that this will not be a serious article. The use of teenage phrases like 'geeky' show her hand somewhat and it's hard to resist the feeling that she's taking an inappropriately light-hearted look at at very grim subject. I fear Ms. Hyde is often undermined by her own 'sense of humour', which has been the downfall of so many British writers, by no means all of them women. George Orwell once praised George Gissing for not suffering from this besetting national flaw.

Perhaps you missed the sentence beginning "if the circumstances were less deadly serious...."

But, like a certain stereotype of Americans, Conchis, it appears you just don't do irony, so you just don't get this article or many others....you have also overlooked the noble literary and journalistic tradition, going back centuries of .....ridicule. (cf. Pope, Swift etc...).
One of the best things to do about overweening, arrogant and incompetent leaders is - to laugh at them, as inventively as possible. This is sometimes called..."satire" - which Marina Hyde is extremely good at.

"Geeky" is "teenage" is it? Well maybe it once was, long ago in a Galaxy far, far away, when Jackie was still in print.....(its origins are probably 18thC Austrian - virtually primordial....)

Oh and, you fail to grasp the concept of online or 24 hr news feeds..... it is all about a concept known as "breaking news..." Labour defections, China etc... That tends to be at the top, dear Conchis.... you are expected to scroll down..... and not expected to want GB news prioritised over ...er, what, the colonies...?

Anyway, I'm in pain from all this brick wall head-banging... I want to see True Detective 3/7 again... it was very complex and very American, Conchis.
Better keep your distance...

(In the meantime - see if you can find fault with this magisterial summary... (in The Observer - so sorry about that...)...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/17/mrs-may-and-mr-corbyn-are-complicit-in-britains-drift-towards-disaster

[LMcD]

Er, sorry LMcD but I mean, this was intended ironically wasn't it?
Because I don't think our interlocutors on this thread will have understood that...so, please confirm?

Just in case....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_nr_n_0?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avaughan+williams+slatkin&keywords=vaughan+williams+slatkin&ie=UTF8&qid=1550523439&rnid=1642204031

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...illiams+previn

Hi Jayne!
I really must consult somebody about my sense of mischief.
Some years ago we went on a Saga music break centring on the BSO, and it was clear from talking to local music lovers that they were all immensely proud of what the orchestra had achieved under the baton of Marin Alsop (who has, of course, also become a Proms favourite). As for Previn...well, his recording of Walton's 1st is still many people's benchmark.

[greenilex]

Irony on the web seems particularly problematic. Perhaps because people can reply almost instantly and before better judgement might kick in?

[Conchis]

Perhaps you missed the sentence beginning "if the circumstances were less deadly serious...."

But, like a certain stereotype of Americans, Conchis, it appears you just don't do irony, so you just don't get this article or many others....you have also overlooked the noble literary and journalistic tradition, going back centuries of .....ridicule. (cf. Pope, Swift etc...).
One of the best things to do about overweening, arrogant and incompetent leaders is - to laugh at them, as inventively as possible. This is sometimes called..."satire" - which Marina Hyde is extremely good at.

"Geeky" is "teenage" is it? Well maybe it once was, long ago in a Galaxy far, far away, when Jackie was still in print.....(its origins are probably 18thC Austrian - virtually primordial....)

Oh and, you fail to grasp the concept of online or 24 hr news feeds..... it is all about a concept known as "breaking news..." Labour defections, China etc... That tends to be at the top, dear Conchis.... you are expected to scroll down..... and not expected to want GB news prioritised over ...er, what, the colonies...?

Anyway, I'm in pain from all this brick wall head-banging... I want to see True Detective 3/7 again... it was very complex and very American, Conchis.
Better keep your distance...

(In the meantime - see if you can find fault with this magisterial summary... (in The Observer - so sorry about that...)...
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...wards-disaster

I realised she was being - or attempting to be - ironical, but I think your serious purpose needs to be more evident to carry it off properly. Dean Swift (to whom I certainly hope you're not comparing Ms. Hyde!) certainly had that, as did the other Augustan you mention. But I think that kind of satire has probably had its day. In fact, maybe satire has had its day, given the times we live in?

The 'breaking news' story about China was only briefly on top, then the BBC re-prioritised its story about Labour divisions. Maybe because of complaints from folks like me? Well, I can dream.....:)

[doversoul1]

Perhaps you missed the sentence beginning "if the circumstances were less deadly serious...."

But, like a certain stereotype of Americans, Conchis, it appears you just don't do irony, so you just don't get this article or many others....you have also overlooked the noble literary and journalistic tradition, going back centuries of .....ridicule. (cf. Pope, Swift etc...).
One of the best things to do about overweening, arrogant and incompetent leaders is - to laugh at them, as inventively as possible. This is sometimes called..."satire" - which Marina Hyde is extremely good at.

"Geeky" is "teenage" is it? Well maybe it once was, long ago in a Galaxy far, far away, when Jackie was still in print.....(its origins are probably 18thC Austrian - virtually primordial....)

Oh and, you fail to grasp the concept of online or 24 hr news feeds..... it is all about a concept known as "breaking news..." Labour defections, China etc... That tends to be at the top, dear Conchis.... you are expected to scroll down..... and not expected to want GB news prioritised over ...er, what, the colonies...?

Anyway, I'm in pain from all this brick wall head-banging... I want to see True Detective 3/7 again... it was very complex and very American, Conchis.
Better keep your distance...

(In the meantime - see if you can find fault with this magisterial summary... (in The Observer - so sorry about that...)...
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...wards-disaster

You probably don’t go back far enough. Irony used to exist at a much higher level and journalists wrote about the subjects they were concerned with. The main aim of this and many other articles in the similar style are all about showing off how cleverly they can write, in much the same way as, sadly, some Radio 3 programmes are for/about the presenters and not about music.

You may say that as long as the content is there the style shouldn’t matter but if I am to read an article or any other writing, I prefer reading it without constantly having to blow off the fluffs.

Still, I suppose it all comes down to where one sets the standard. Or simply the matter of taste.

[Conchis]

You probably don’t go back far enough. Irony used to exist at a much higher level and journalists wrote about the subjects they were concerned with. The main aim of this and many other articles in the similar style are all about showing off how cleverly they can write, in much the same way as, sadly, some Radio 3 programmes are for/about the presenters and not about music.

You may say that as long as the content is there the style shouldn’t matter but if I am to read an article or any other writing, I prefer reading it without constantly having to blow off the fluffs.

Still, I suppose it all comes down to where one sets the standard. Or simply the matter of taste.

I may be wrong, but didn't this all begin sometime after WW2, with the emergence of the likes of Bernard Levin - journalists who, rather than telling you the time, invited you to admire the mechanism?

[Conchis]

Just randomly switched on R4: an 'American economist' is talking about the changing nature of day and night. I'm pretty sure if you did a 'blind test' of radio stations, you could correctly identify R4 by the number of American voices heard on it.

[doversoul1]

I may be wrong, but didn't this all begin sometime after WW2, with the emergence of the likes of Bernard Levin - journalists who, rather than telling you the time, invited you to admire the mechanism?

Yes, there have always been individuals whose names tend to weigh more than what they write but those used to be, I think, the exception rather than the rule in newspaper journalism. Or it may be that I didn’t know any better when I was young.

[jayne lee wilson]

You probably don’t go back far enough. Irony used to exist at a much higher level and journalists wrote about the subjects they were concerned with. The main aim of this and many other articles in the similar style are all about showing off how cleverly they can write, in much the same way as, sadly, some Radio 3 programmes are for/about the presenters and not about music.

You may say that as long as the content is there the style shouldn’t matter but if I am to read an article or any other writing, I prefer reading it without constantly having to blow off the fluffs.

Still, I suppose it all comes down to where one sets the standard. Or simply the matter of taste.

Not far enough? Wow...
I could have quoted Juvenal (in translation, don't worry!), but I thought you might see that as showing off....

Don't you enjoy language, my feelingly fishy friend? Isn't it the sheer verbal brilliance and invention of such as Swift, Pope, and yes - Marina Hyde at her best - that makes us want to read them? They all palpably take pleasure in their own literary abilities (it's a bit like the enjoyment in playing a musical instrument..). If you took a more puritanical line "I must not show off in my writing" things could be very dull....

Conch-Song, White-Cliffs-Immortal - Don't fall into the trap of lamenting the loss of ancient values, whilst failing to see what is of value today. Marina Hyde does a great job in puncturing the pretensions of the variously powerful, but you may fail to appreciate it if all you do is measure it against the great figures of past centuries...
It can't be the same. And it is always easier to snipe, than to appreciate. Always.
If you can conceive of better, show us - right here...

Please could you give me some examples of "irony at a much higher level"... if it is better than Juvenal, Pope etc., I'd love to read it!

[vinteuil]

.

... jayne is right in her appreciation of the language as well as any 'message' a writer may intend to convey. She goes back to Juvenal ('respect!') - but if I were to think of the 19th century : when I choose to dip in to Lamb, Carlyle, Hazlitt, de Quincey, Arnold, Ruskin, Pater... (and I do, ho yes!) - it's as much for the joy of revelling in their prose as it is for the substance of their 'message'. And the same goes for journalism of the present day - there are writers one relishes for the turn of phrase : it wd be odd to hold this against them, surely?

.

[Conchis]

Not far enough? Wow...
I could have quoted Juvenal (in translation, don't worry!), but I thought you might see that as showing off....

Don't you enjoy language, my feelingly fishy friend? Isn't it the sheer verbal brilliance and invention of such as Swift, Pope, and yes - Marina Hyde at her best - that makes us want to read them? They all palpably take pleasure in their own literary abilities (it's a bit like the enjoyment in playing a musical instrument..). If you took a more puritanical line "I must not show off in my writing" things could be very dull....

Conch-Song, White-Cliffs-Immortal - Don't fall into the trap of lamenting the loss of ancient values, whilst failing to see what is of value today. Marian Hyde does a great job in puncturing the pretensions of the variously powerful, but you may fail to appreciate it if all you do is measure it against the great figures of past centuries...
It can't be the same. And it is always easier to snipe, than to appreciate. Always.
If you can conceive of better, show us - right here...

Please could you give me some examples of "irony at a much higher level"... if it is better than Juvenal, Pope etc., I'd love to read it!

I think you can't get better, or more savage, satire than Swift's Modest Proposal.

I read this article at the weekend. It's written by an Asian female, whose background is probably fairly socially conservative. It's excellent: points carefully delivered and thesis strongly supported. Nesrine Malik is not inviting me to admire her mechanism, she's telling me what she thinks (it helps that it coincides with that I think, I suppose)....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/18/britain-brexit

[vinteuil]

It's written by an Asian female...

... Sudanese/British. African not Asian.

.

[doversoul1]

Not far enough? Wow...
I could have quoted Juvenal (in translation, don't worry!), but I thought you might see that as showing off....

Don't you enjoy language, my feelingly fishy friend? Isn't it the sheer verbal brilliance and invention of such as Swift, Pope, and yes - Marina Hyde at her best - that makes us want to read them? They all palpably take pleasure in their own literary abilities (it's a bit like the enjoyment in playing a musical instrument..). If you took a more puritanical line "I must not show off in my writing" things could be very dull....

Conch-Song, White-Cliffs-Immortal - Don't fall into the trap of lamenting the loss of ancient values, whilst failing to see what is of value today. Marian Hyde does a great job in puncturing the pretensions of the variously powerful, but you may fail to appreciate it if all you do is measure it against the great figures of past centuries...
It can't be the same. And it is always easier to snipe, than to appreciate. Always.
If you can conceive of better, show us - right here...

Please could you give me some examples of "irony at a much higher level"... if it is better than Juvenal, Pope etc., I'd love to read it!

Some performers revel in their own performances. The same can be said about writers. There are many ways of showing the pleasure in one’s own performance/witting. But again, a lot of it is a matter of taste. When it comes to writing, you could say I am just over-selective.

vinteuil

... there are writers one relishes for the turn of phrase: it wd be odd to hold this against them, surely?

There certainly are but I expect you’ll find it hard to say that about many (some, if you prefer) of those current writers in The Guardian, or any other newspapers (the last bit is just my guess).

[ed.] afterthought; Sorry, I didn’t realise that you weren’t aware of the difference in writing between literature and journalism.