...Should Thames-Link Train Order have gone to Germany?

[scottycelt]

... That's probably the most ridiculous comment to have been made so far on this MB.

Thank you, Simon! Mindful of the staggering quality of some of the opposition here, that is some accolade ...

So, in the full swell of a Sun-like Europhobic rant, you are now apparently claiming that it is 'ridiculous' for one to state the following well-known and hitherto undisputed facts:

a) The UK is a fully paid-up member of the EU which, in terms of economic size, is recognised as the biggest trading bloc in the world.
b) The UK still retains it's own currency and has therefore the ability to set it's own interest rates unlike those countries which have joined the Euro.

If either or both of the above comments are untrue please do urgently advise the rest of us, including the UK Government and Her Majesty's Opposition which apparently have long believed otherwise.

[MrGongGong]

Nice to see that Nutwoods voice of reason is back
the price of everything and the value of nothing
is a phrase that springs to mind

(but i guess he's still got his fingers in his ears going "la la la la la la I can't hear you ")

[Freddie Campbell]

...However in matters such as the one under consideration you would have to conclude each Nation will continue to look after it's own interests- leaving Britain to "shoot itself in the foot" by adhearing to unworkable EU Directives?

[amateur51]

...However in matters such as the one under consideration you would have to conclude each Nation will continue to look after it's own interests- leaving Britain to "shoot itself in the foot" by adhearing to unworkable EU Directives?

Have you actually read the preceding contributions, excluding Simon's, Freddie?

Maybe Simon's not the only one going 'la-la-la-la'?

[amateur51]

Thank you, Simon! Mindful of the staggering quality of some of the opposition here, that is some accolade ...

So, in the full swell of a Sun-like Europhobic rant, you are now apparently claiming that it is 'ridiculous' for one to state the following well-known and hitherto undisputed facts:

a) The UK is a fully paid-up member of the EU which, in terms of economic size, is recognised as the biggest trading bloc in the world.
b) The UK still retains it's own currency and has therefore the ability to set it's own interest rates unlike those countries which have joined the Euro.

If either or both of the above comments are untrue please do urgently advise the rest of us, including the UK Government and Her Majesty's Opposition which apparently have long believed otherwise.

Bravo scotty! (that'll upset him )

And of course it was Mr Broon who kept UK out of the Euro, a move (or perhaps a non-move?) that seems to have served us well

[MrGongGong]

...However in matters such as the one under consideration you would have to conclude each Nation will continue to look after it's own interests- leaving Britain to "shoot itself in the foot" by adhearing to unworkable EU Directives?

Are you really sure that it's an EU directive ?
(and I'm not saying that I know !) as this seems to be the default position
strange that the Germans and the French (who seem also to be investing in the UK ) seem to be able to work it out
companies are transnational these days
so its a bit of a fantasy to think that the UK can "go back" to how things used to be (which would of course mean paying the same kind of wages as in Malaysia )
though i'm prepared to get rid of my old volvo for a new Bristol (straight swap) if it helps the UK car industry

[french frank]

unworkable EU Directives?

Following MrGG's comment (we both, clearly, are seeking information), what are the EU Directives involved here, chapter and verse?

[aeolium]

Irrespective of the EU legal position (which I am not fully conversant with, and which probably needs a fair knowledge of commercial law), I think it ought to be possible for any EU country to take into account not merely the narrow 'value for money' test - as you or I might do when buying a car or washing-machine - but also wider considerations such as social impact, the effect on their own national industry, longer-term implications (for instance, the loss of a single large contract potentially ending a major company's economic viability). There may be a large knock-on effect resulting from the loss of that industry in all its local suppliers and their employees no longer being taxpayers, users of services etc - it may result in the virtual destruction of a community.

I think in this case the problem is far more to do with the long-term failure of successive UK governments to invest properly in rail transport in the way that other countries have (e.g. the Advanced Passenger Train project which was abandoned in the early 1980s only to be resurrected overseas later).

[Serial_Apologist]

Irrespective of the EU legal position (which I am not fully conversant with, and which probably needs a fair knowledge of commercial law), I think it ought to be possible for any EU country to take into account not merely the narrow 'value for money' test - as you or I might do when buying a car or washing-machine - but also wider considerations such as social impact, the effect on their own national industry, longer-term implications (for instance, the loss of a single large contract potentially ending a major company's economic viability). There may be a large knock-on effect resulting from the loss of that industry in all its local suppliers and their employees no longer being taxpayers, users of services etc - it may result in the virtual destruction of a community.

I think in this case the problem is far more to do with the long-term failure of successive UK governments to invest properly in rail transport in the way that other countries have (e.g. the Advanced Passenger Train project which was abandoned in the early 1980s only to be resurrected overseas later).

Under our free-enterprise system, those with the readies to decide where jobs are created or destroyed are more interested in narrow company self-interest - labour productivity being their bottom line in the final analysis - than in benefitting community or consumer, unless well-off.

Brecht wrote a poem, which Eisler set to music in 1936, included in "Die Rundkopfe und die Spitzkopfe" I think: words to the effect that the bosses are in cut-throat competition in times of plenty, and then are suddenly united when needing to lower the living standards of the working class.

There was a time when we really were all "in it together" - or so it seemed; during World War Two, and for 15, maybe 20 years after: the years of "progressive gradualism", the "mixed economy" and cross-class consensus, when it was just a few "bad apples" that had to be exposed as a warning to others: Poulsen, T. Dan Smith, & Co. It's taken roughly 25 years since Thatcher emasculated the trade unions and 22 since the E Bloc became accessible to capitalist enterprise for the morality of the ruling class to be exposed in its true colours. We shouldn't really be surprised.

S-A

[Freddie Campbell]

...Thanks Aeolium & Guys- Yes,I've read all contributions & would be sad to see the end of yet another British Industry!
There are no EU Directives involved(as such)-just(as Aeolium has suggested)fiscal values without social consideration.
Mr Gong-I'm pleased the French & Germans are investing in Britain-French Power Stations will be better than ours(?)and
Ford assemble their cars with greater ease & less cost in Germany! But is this not really a take-over of our Island and it's
old Manufacturing Industries? Eventually we will all be driving Chinese-made cars,designed in Britain,with no base
for any home-grown Industry whatever...Sad!

[Serial_Apologist]

At least there is one Japanese car manufacturer that appears to have some faith in its British workforce, it has to be said. But only after a period of massive rationalisation and technological re-equipment had taken place, requiring less human capital/labour input. Leaving aside much-discussed income disparities between ceo's and underlings, capital always seeks to go to where it can out-compete capital and maximise profits and returns to shareholders. The general EC policy of barring national governmental subsidies, minimal provisos aside, acts in the interests of maintaining this state of affairs. Only America is allowed to be protectionist... America being too big to challenge... but for how much longer?

[MrGongGong]

...Thanks Aeolium & Guys- Yes,I've read all contributions & would be sad to see the end of yet another British Industry!
There are no EU Directives involved(as such)-just(as Aeolium has suggested)fiscal values without social consideration.
Mr Gong-I'm pleased the French & Germans are investing in Britain-French Power Stations will be better than ours(?)and
Ford assemble their cars with greater ease & less cost in Germany! But is this not really a take-over of our Island and it's
old Manufacturing Industries? Eventually we will all be driving Chinese-made cars,designed in Britain,with no base
for any home-grown Industry whatever...Sad!

Its a bit late to complain about that
there are things we do extremely well (electroacoustic music and cheese being two of my faves )
making cars hasn't been one for a very long time (apart from niche companies like Bristol )
what we do well is fairly niche stuff but of huge value
hand made preamps and high end speakers for example
maybe part of the UK problem is that we have a view of "success" that seems to place the Alan Sugars of this world at the top , sell products that don't work properly to people to stupid to notice
rather than the Turing and Johnathan Harvey's of the world

I know which I value (and Batemans is intrinsically better than Carlsberg regardless of units shipped !!!)

[Freddie Campbell]

...To paraphrase Michael Flanders's Song..."Although the British,the British,the British are best- I've had to give my twopence to ALL of the REST!"