Lasting Powers of Attorney

[doversoul1]

Lat
I haven’t read all our post so apologies if you have already mentioned.

Recently, I went through this very matter for two cases: one for a friend of mine; the other for ourselves. I won’t go into the details but if you leave it until it is too late, i.e. your parents become the stage where they are ‘mentally incapable of making decisions’ or something to the effect, you will have to go through the court of protection and become his/her deputy in order to access his money or estate. This is many times more time consuming and very costly. Also you will be required to submit annual report and other duties will come into your way.

I can imagine your father’s response. ‘our parents never had any such nonsense. It’s only for the solicitors to make more money etc.’ It’s far from easy but do try get round your father’s resistance. You also need a witness to sign the form that the donor (your father in your case) is mentally capable of understanding and remembering what is s/he is signing for. Of course, your father may be perfectly capable until his last day but it isn’t worth risking.

You can fill in the form online, take it to you/his bank and they’ll register for you at, in Lloyds’ case £80 per set. A solicitor charges double or thereabout. The point is, no matter what schemes you set up within the family, you will not be able to access the money that is not in your name and you will not make any arrangement about the property that is not in your name. As it is already mentioned up-thread, it is only for the time when your father cannot mange the matter himself. He is not giving you the liberty to do what you like with his money.

I hope you’ll be able to persuade your father/parents.
P.S. Authorities come in only if you leave it too late.

[Lat-Literal]

Lat
I haven’t read all our post so apologies if you have already mentioned.

Recently, I went through this very matter for two cases: one for a friend of mine; the other for ourselves. I won’t go into the details but if you leave it until it is too late, i.e. your parents become the stage where they are ‘mentally incapable of making decisions’ or something to the effect, you will have to go through the court of protection and become his/her deputy in order to access his money or estate. This is many times more time consuming and very costly. Also you will be required to submit annual report and other duties will come into your way.

I can imagine your father’s response. ‘our parents never had any such nonsense. It’s only for the solicitors to make more money etc.’ It’s far from easy but do try get round your father’s resistance. You also need a witness to sign the form that the donor (your father in your case) is mentally capable of understanding and remembering what is s/he is signing for. Of course, your father may be perfectly capable until his last day but it isn’t worth risking.

You can fill in the form online, take it to you/his bank and they’ll register for you at, in Lloyds’ case £80 per set. A solicitor charges double or thereabout. The point is, no matter what schemes you set up within the family, you will not be able to access the money that is not in your name and you will not make any arrangement about the property that is not in your name. As it is already mentioned up-thread, it is only for the time when your father cannot mange the matter himself. He is not giving you the liberty to do what you like with his money.

I hope you’ll be able to persuade your father/parents.
P.S. Authorities come in only if you leave it too late.

Thank you ever so much dover soul - you describe my Dad so well it is almost as if you have met him - and many thanks to vinteuil too.

We have now had the umpteenth round on this matter. They were quite upbeat given today's sunshine and the lack of conclusion yesterday so to explain the situation in more detail was initially quite deflating for them. I think they might be slowly coming round to the idea of having one done professionally. It transpires that my mother doesn't have any sort of separate account although she once did. They had turned it all into joint arrangements precisely to address the inability - ostensibly perceived originally as physical - of one not being able to manage so they feel and I agree that whatever one does it is almost impossible to be right. The pill has been sugared by the assurance that the completion of a form does not imply an immediate handing over. Rather, that it enables a decision to do so if and when it is needed. I can't help but think, though, that it is all a bit crackers because at the point of any such decision, the person ie my Dad, will be considerably less aware of his own decision making which might on another day be totally different if only because of the nature of the condition.

In something of support to the formal approach, although I had been aiming to say it anyway, I did put them in the picture about my own financial affairs. My estate such as it is - it would be the house and only a bit more - would go fully to either of them as next of kin should I die before one or both of them. They didn't appear to know that was what I wanted and what would happen. The bigger surprise to them was that should I die last, a percentage - certainly not all - of what I left would go in a 50-50 proportion to specific younger members of my father's and my mother's family, not that they appear to be in desperate need. Given that I haven't met many of them, they were very surprised to hear that I had thought in this way and equally pleased. That would be in recognition of late members of the family who had been good to me, in appreciation of current older or middle aged members of the family who have more recently been good to them and in thanks to my parents by proxy for their support to me. At 3.15pm on a Friday, I think I shall say the weekend has now started.

[oddoneout]

I can't help but think, though, that it is all a bit crackers because at the point of any such decision, the person ie my Dad, will be considerably less aware of his own decision making which might on another day be totally different if only because of the nature of the condition.

In some respects that is true, and why the decision to make the preliminary arrangements needs to be done while the mental capacity still exists. However the point at which it becomes necessary to take over control won't be based on a single day or a few poor actions on you father's part. Those around will watch and wait - and hope- not wanting to take that step, which has so much emotional baggage attached to it in addition to the obvious practical responsibilities. In some cases it is very evident when the time comes - sudden mental deterioration (as it was with my mother)- but for other families it is a slow process of monitoring change and deciding when the balance has tipped.
As an aside, the mental capacity issue provided some light relief in my mother's case. As she went into a care home in Scotland near my sister, it seemed prudent, bearing in mind that some legal matters differ there, to set up a parallel POA primarily to enable my sister to make welfare decisions, but also reduce the possibility of financial hiccups. To do that involved her convincing a solicitor that she understood what was being proposed. Her condition at that stage was variable, and change tended to make her uncooperative and bad tempered so the fact that a long journey would be involved(150 mile round trip) did not bode well, but it was case of nothing venture. Her interview with the solicitor(conducted without my sister's presence, presumably to avoid influence) apparently left him in no doubt that she fully understood what was being proposed, asking questions, explaining what was already in place, why she came to be in Scotland, etc. In short for that one essential period she became once again the intelligent engaged person she used to be - and that was all that was needed.

[Lat-Literal]

In some respects that is true, and why the decision to make the preliminary arrangements needs to be done while the mental capacity still exists. However the point at which it becomes necessary to take over control won't be based on a single day or a few poor actions on you father's part. Those around will watch and wait - and hope- not wanting to take that step, which has so much emotional baggage attached to it in addition to the obvious practical responsibilities. In some cases it is very evident when the time comes - sudden mental deterioration (as it was with my mother)- but for other families it is a slow process of monitoring change and deciding when the balance has tipped.
As an aside, the mental capacity issue provided some light relief in my mother's case. As she went into a care home in Scotland near my sister, it seemed prudent, bearing in mind that some legal matters differ there, to set up a parallel POA primarily to enable my sister to make welfare decisions, but also reduce the possibility of financial hiccups. To do that involved her convincing a solicitor that she understood what was being proposed. Her condition at that stage was variable, and change tended to make her uncooperative and bad tempered so the fact that a long journey would be involved(150 mile round trip) did not bode well, but it was case of nothing venture. Her interview with the solicitor(conducted without my sister's presence, presumably to avoid influence) apparently left him in no doubt that she fully understood what was being proposed, asking questions, explaining what was already in place, why she came to be in Scotland, etc. In short for that one essential period she became once again the intelligent engaged person she used to be - and that was all that was needed.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate your advice and my feelings are towards you and the situation you were in.

It has been an unusually long time coming but this afternoon turned out to be one of my meltdown moments. Coping broke down. The only person's head that is hit in these times is my own. My father at his most obstreperous: "I'm not having my brother telling me what to do via you - it is just the three of us." This, following another attempt on my part, not least as a consequence of receiving a well-meaning e-mail from my uncle suggesting that I change my electricity provider. If I mention his name, he and I will both get a £20 Amazon voucher.

I tend to read the subtext in a lot of these situations. Sometimes I wish I had been born thicker than I am. At root, he wanted to know if there had been any follow-up to the POA discussion. I said that there had been which would perhaps have surprised him and added that I had had increasing alarm when he went home on reading about the future possibility of frozen assets. There was also a note from me to say that while I would be open-minded to switching, not that it is really me, we have loads on our plate at the moment and could I think about it in a fortnight?. He said, genuinely, he understood. I like him. He's a nice guy but he does come from a "born in 1942" angle. If only we had all been. Regrettably we weren't.

The other one is interesting to me. I have to see things these days as interesting when I can. Uncle was born in North Shields. He can't remember a thing about it, having moved from there at 18 months. There is no feeling in him for the region at all. Strangely that feeling is either side of him age wise. Dad was pushed hither and thither and had to make his own way at 11. That is, when his Mum asked him to take second stage to the baby. While in the wartime the location was fraught, I am in no doubt that Tynemouth people were good to and for him. That bravely he somewhat took the understanding for that baby to the levels of reverence is full credit to him. Nevertheless - and he has been wrong on the POA - it all emerges nearly 80 years later in an unforeseen umbridge that does play along pre and post 1979 political lines while remaining amicable. I know where my sympathies are broadly in this sense.

He has spoken happily with his brother this evening. It isn't at all awful - and I am pleased that it isn't - but it is fascinating to see. Equally, he said to me that he was so sorry it had affected me so badly - and it does; it really does - and if I now feel it is right he will do it. My Mum now really wants it to happen. This could easily change again but I respect him for it. We are all trying to do what is right. I think generationally we've got Thatcher/Boris Johnson on the one side and Heath/Wilson on the other and something like Shirley Williams and David Owen eliding into Theresa May in the middle. It looks like that third way might just get what is needed to be done achieved. It would be about time even at this parochial level. If it goes through, and if it doesn't, remember that I am a weathercock. Always have been. We could almost put money on the political outcomes of the next few years if the POA happens.

Oh:

And he's loving the Tynemouth photos and that I got there - that bit has absolutely worked out : I really love it : there was no choice in the matter but it is a part of who we are.

It's not all bleedin' Uckfield via the Prudential, 2018, thank gawd.

There's more than a small space for soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIUC8ms5ZZk

[Lat-Literal]

Actually, I am not at all a weathercock.

That was complete nonsense.

You will find me in a perception of the centre, wherever that is at any time.

Gaining a substantial "tide outwards" though not a conclusive support.

It hardly matters now...….what shall be will be.

[Lat-Literal]

The POA is now looking unlikely as my father chops and changes from day to day. Not all of it is down to illness. However, I would in order to be stretching as far as is humanly possible towards his outlook which to some extent is based on his life long character, (not only for the worse but also for the better as he sees it, not that my mother does), find it helpful to hear if anyone knows whether being named as someone who can manage his financial affairs should he ever wish for it - a long sentence, sorry - could involve that named person - me effectively although it would be my Mum first or equal - in paying for any future care needs for him from that named person's finances. I can see where he is coming from. Keep the two sets of finances as separate as it can get so as not for the financial burden to fall on me and it would have to be met from their estate, ie their property. We do at least share a wariness of big business although I could really do some 40 years on from the first time that there was a competitive power thing from him taking place in it not now re-arising as this new ghost.

This is becoming so b----y difficult, what with there being two of them going downhill and one of me who is going rapidly downhill because of it. Love means that they are paying for the remainder of my mortgage and I - it's paltry - am seeing them each day, buying my father a record player so he can revisit old music, buying him flower bulbs which take no thought and give him pleasure, supporting him in his ongoing playing of the piano keyboard and more. But I'm now getting my Mum ringing me up and asking me "what is wrong?" and she is imagining me crying which I do though not as so she could hear it. In other words, us being with him is now leading in varying ways to each of us losing the plot. They are both now my worst nightmare alongside the worst nightmare of them dying. I am at Moorfields on Monday and then the dentists where the physical strains of a difficult life and now this will probably emerge one way or another in an awful diagnosis. The sunsets, the sea and the animals look lovely. But I've had just about as much as I can stomach now from people, organised and not organised, and I accept that a part of it is my own limited personality. November could be the cruellest month. My contributions here and any travel are the normal unimpeded part.

(This is not to say that relationships with people on this forum are especially fraught - we live in a different dimension here and it is in some ways a good outlet for trying to be oneself)

[Lat-Literal]

And the plus side is that behind the scenes, my driving licence arrived at 11.30am and I threw myself into the metropolis so as to pay off my mortgage in all but name. This appears to have been done. I have to say that I was very lucky with the people in the key places I spoke to. I went up to branch managerial level and they turned out to be good. Have just heard.

But as I always said....couldn't give a toss about money really.....it's a relief to my parents and that matters to me but I'd far rather be sailing through Wales in a coracle.

[oddoneout]

Hang on in there Lat. Your father may be chopping and changing, but that's a positive if put against outright refusal. I don't know if your question is something about which he has expressed a concern, whether specifically or in the course of discussions/exchanges, or one you are expressing on your own behalf( understandably aware of the implications of such a liability). Either way, my understanding is that the answer is 'No'; one of the requirements of the set-up is that the donor's finances are kept entirely apart from those of the attorney so that in effect the donor is still a separate financial entity. Where things become more complicated - and this has nothing to do with POA, it can happen without one being in place - is if the local authority will not 'top-up' care fees if the individual ceases to be self-funding and the fees for the current care facility are greater than the council tariff(which they almost certainly will be). The whole matter of care, and whether/how much the individual or local authority pays is another minefield and you will need to at least look at what is involved, what the options are etc at some stage as I think you are aware, but I would suggest the priority for now is the POA.
As a matter of interest the joint accounts your parents have - I'm assuming they are single signature?

[Lat-Literal]

Hang on in there Lat. Your father may be chopping and changing, but that's a positive if put against outright refusal. I don't know if your question is something about which he has expressed a concern, whether specifically or in the course of discussions/exchanges, or one you are expressing on your own behalf( understandably aware of the implications of such a liability). Either way, my understanding is that the answer is 'No'; one of the requirements of the set-up is that the donor's finances are kept entirely apart from those of the attorney so that in effect the donor is still a separate financial entity. Where things become more complicated - and this has nothing to do with POA, it can happen without one being in place - is if the local authority will not 'top-up' care fees if the individual ceases to be self-funding and the fees for the current care facility are greater than the council tariff(which they almost certainly will be). The whole matter of care, and whether/how much the individual or local authority pays is another minefield and you will need to at least look at what is involved, what the options are etc at some stage as I think you are aware, but I would suggest the priority for now is the POA.
As a matter of interest the joint accounts your parents have - I'm assuming they are single signature?

Thank you so much. Oh my good gawd. If only you knew. Well you will know as I am about to tell you. When that driving licence turned up 10 days early, that was precisely the time when I looked at the one I had and it was bona fide. I can only assume that the muddle my parents give me now and a deterioration in my eyes - it is tiny print - meant that on Tuesday when we were all there I couldn't do it. I feel such a fool but this all really affects me now. The new licence supersedes what went before. Next I had to hit the phones quick at both ends. The woman at the building society - Birmingham - older which is my preference, turned out to be the perfect, totally on the ball, angel. Couldn't have asked for more. The building society - "have you got it on mute? - we can't hear you" so then with clock ticking I had to go through the ruddy telephone processes again only be told they "thought" it "should" be ok.

Taxi not bus. Cut off time 3pm and on a Friday. No one had been able to say how instantaneous the payment might be. Bloke turns up. Nice guy. He's taken me to Purley so as I could go on to Ipswich. Same age. His mother is in a care home with dementia. Three wrong left turns later and it's a question from me. "You do realise we are going to George Street, Croydon?" Answer: "I've got the George Hotel, Ashford, Kent here......stupid woman, wait I'm going to have some fun with Miss Whiplash back at base". "Ha-ha-ha. You got it all wrong". I'm tearing my hair out. Cwoydon arrives. Detours. Don't worry. Happy to be dropped off here. Stuck behind 20 Chinese people walking like snails. Woman near a bus stop squares up to me as if to say "don't you use our pavement". Get in the place, sweating, shaking, unshaven...."well, hello" "How are you?" "I'm seriously stressed". "Don't worry. We get all kinds here - there's a DHSS place just over the road - we get all kinds of funny questions". "Probably" - shows intellect here to prove being genuine - "not as funny as the ones that are about to follow". "E-mail address? Ah, yes, unusual as you say. Are you connected with the Glastonbury Festival then?" "No, I just went there a lot before it all became clubby". "And that e-mail address was available". "Yes, it was - I was surprised but there it is". After that, it all went swimmingly, They knew what they were doing. All in all, it's been, erm, rare.

[Dave2002]

I haven't followed this from the start - I'll read it later, but mention of POA reminds me of my parents. My father got ill, but didn't fully lose his faculities. Then he died. My mother survived for several years later, and the first year I was surprised at how well she did, but I think clearly my dad thought she'd go down quite fast. Eventually we had in carers, and visits to doctors etc., and offered to move her to a home, but she refused - said she could cope. By the time she clearly couldn't we tried to follow up POA, but it was touch and go, and eventually her GP said he couldn't sign any documents as it was by then uncertain that she really knew what she wanted or could comprehend.

We didn't get POA, and eventually events took their course, but if one is thinking of getting POA it does help to get it earlier, rather than trying later. We did just manage to persuade mum to get the Attendance Allowance - which obviously she could have had for years, but she didn't want to apply for that, and trying to persuade her to do POA before it became too difficult was all but impossible. She did sometimes "think about it".

[Lat-Literal]

Hang on in there Lat. Your father may be chopping and changing, but that's a positive if put against outright refusal. I don't know if your question is something about which he has expressed a concern, whether specifically or in the course of discussions/exchanges, or one you are expressing on your own behalf( understandably aware of the implications of such a liability). Either way, my understanding is that the answer is 'No'; one of the requirements of the set-up is that the donor's finances are kept entirely apart from those of the attorney so that in effect the donor is still a separate financial entity. Where things become more complicated - and this has nothing to do with POA, it can happen without one being in place - is if the local authority will not 'top-up' care fees if the individual ceases to be self-funding and the fees for the current care facility are greater than the council tariff(which they almost certainly will be). The whole matter of care, and whether/how much the individual or local authority pays is another minefield and you will need to at least look at what is involved, what the options are etc at some stage as I think you are aware, but I would suggest the priority for now is the POA.
As a matter of interest the joint accounts your parents have - I'm assuming they are single signature?

On your key points. for which I am grateful, I am feeding in gently possible strategies without POA. That I would try my utmost to subsidise o bills should assets ever be frozen but I am limited. That the initial approach to a Court of Protection might be £1500-£2000 and whoever they appointed six months down the line would charge £1200-£3000 for being wholly in charge of their finances and we would probably only know that person by name. My father approaches this in two ways. One is with a power driven dark facial driven dark cloud - "I'm not having any of it" - which is not aimed personally at me but everyone else and it's me who is the one physically facing it. The other is to laugh it all off with a wish to talk about neighbourhood cats and the sunshine. You can see what with the music strand where I get some of what I am from. In contrast, my mother reacts with fear and uncharacteristic muddle and generally then goes off to the toilet. I don't know if they have joint signatures. It is a good point worth asking. I doubt, that they know. I have spoken about weathercocks before. We really are as an entity slap bang in the middle. Many would claim to be. But we really, really, are to the extent that every party should be always hammering at our doors in order to persuade us of the need to vote for them. Too much, that's property, to qualify for anything. Too little to do anything at all. Certainly that is why I am a natural centrish political floater.

[Dave2002]

A few more points following on some of the comments from upthread. In the case of my mother, I saw her quite often - though it was around a 200 mile drive to reach her, and most financial matters were set up by direct debit or standing order, which my father had set up. I think there were some new ones which we set up. One issue was the house insurance renewal - but again we managed to get that dealt with eventually, and there was also an issue re the water utility, which threatened to cut her supply off. In that case it turned out that she had actually set up a direct debit, but hadn't paid the balance before that started. At first we thought that she'd "done it wrong", but eventually it turned out that she had done most of it right. However, she got very upset by the threats from the water company, and it was only when mrs d phoned up the company and demanded to speak to the CEO that we got progress. The fact that her name was also the same as my mother's probably helped - I might not have been so successful in that as I'd have had all that nonsense of "we need to speak to the acount holder" etc. (who was 200 miles away) mght have kicked in.

Of course Lat should be able to pull off the same "trick" with his father if necessary.

The local banks and building society people were very helpful. I think we were on the verge of misdemeanours, but I would often take mum into the banks and she would do the business with considerable guidance from me or other family members. The counter staff probably realised what was going on, and that we were trying to act in her best interests. The staff did, however, know all of us personally, from before things got so serious.. [This might not be the case with "modern" banking, in whcih staff and bank branches are hard to find or establish any relationshiop with.]
However, she never did anything which she didn't agree to, and on one occasion we set up a new interest bearing account which probably saved her about £1000 in the next year.

After my father died we went to a branch in Shrewsbury to discuss matters with an advisor. He suggested having computer banking, but we said that would be no good as mum could not cope with computers. He shrugged this off, and mentioned that many customers simply share their access details (despite this being against the T&Cs) and that solved a lot of problems, with more able family members effectively dealing with their relative's affairs, but without the backing of a POA.

Things may have changed in the last decade, but I was one of the responsible people for my father-in-law's POA, as he got very keen on POAs after his wife became seriously demented. At the point when we needed to activate the POA, we had to fill in forms and get a number of other family members to agree that we were responsible people and could be trusted to administer the POA. Thus at that time (and perhaps now) the operation of the POA was a multi stage process. The first step was to get the subject to agree and nominate suitable people to administer his/her affairs. The second stage, which could be much later, was to actually give the nominated people power to act.

As I recall though, this may have had only limited effect on the outcome, as there was only a short window during which we could actually have done much, though it would have been helpful if we had eventually had to find a home and arrange for payments to be made. In the end though, events went faster than that, and we ended up dealing as executors of my f-i-l's will, rather than trying to manage payments to homes, deal with Local Authorities etc, which obviously some people do have to do in the event that their relative survives for a long while - which can happen.

[oddoneout]

Dave, things have changed since then, and the notifications etc are done at the outset so the LPA is in effect usable immediately it's needed, rather than having to wait for registration etc. I'm assuming that's recognition of the fact that waiting weeks or months for formalities to be competed before action can be taken can cause enormous difficulties for all concerned.
There are ways to help manage bank accounts without POA that don't involve flying under the radar, such as third party mandates, but as you note the personal touch is valuable in reaching a suitable solution. The difficulty with informal arrangements is what happens if something goes wrong; if an account is hacked and money taken(ie third party action rather than those involved in the informal arrangement that the bank may be ignoring) then it might be a tad difficult to get redress?

[Dave2002]

oddoneout

You are right - I don't condone flying under the radar, but many people do I suspect. Also it's not only 3rd party action which could prove problematic, but actually action by other family members who may take action which is not completely legit, but in the grand scheme of things I suppose it's not always a big deal. However one should be aware that previously trusted family members may not always turn out to be quite so trustworthy under some of these circumstances.

[oddoneout]

oddoneout

You are right - I don't condone flying under the radar, but many people do I suspect. Also it's not only 3rd party action which could prove problematic, but actually action by other family members who may take action which is not completely legit, but in the grand scheme of things I suppose it's not always a big deal. However one should be aware that previously trusted family members may not always turn out to be quite so trustworthy under some of these circumstances.

Sadly a great many people feel they have no option as they are given no or insufficient help in finding a workable legitimate solution - not helped by decreasing access to 'face to face' banking. Disembodied voices in a call centre reading from a script, or online information lacking the necessary detail are not the best options for someone already struggling to make sense of things. It also has to be said that in ordinary life many are casual about who they give their PIN to and so they just see it as a logical 'normal' thing for a struggling family member to do.
As you say the trust situation can be fluid, and it can be difficult to apply the same critical eye to matters as one might to a person not part of the family circle.