"Modernism", "Elitism", and "The Working Classes"

[Beef Oven!]

But to what do you attribute this problem (for problem it surely is)?

I pretty much answer that in post 206.

Poor workforce planning.

Profile the patients (age and other demographics, morbidities, no. of births, epidemiological factors etc). Work out the number of beds, clinical episodes etc required and then decide the number of healthcare workers are required and set an adequate number of training places - the funded vacancies are already in place, just waiting. There are a number of secondary things that can be done like attracting back ex-nurses etc. There's not much more to it than that. The difficult bit is the doctoring and nursing, but they are great at that already.

By the way, you seem not yet to have responded to the Swedish question...

Your Swedish friend, you said, was uncomfortable with so many Swedes in Sweden, outnumbering non-Swedes. I was merely pointing out the demography is on his side and that sorry situation will soon be reversed.

[Beef Oven!]

This is a good point.

But what about the people from Eastern Europe who've been coming to pick our fruit? It's not lack of training that makes us disinclined to do it ourselves.

I would hazard a guess that, that can be partially explained by the relative difference in the values of the UK and Eastern European economies. People will become indifferent to low-paid work in their higher value economy, and the same jobs will be attractive to people from the lower paid economy.

[jean]

The changes you envisage won't come about in time for this year's strawberry harvest, unfortunately.

[ahinton]

Poor workforce planning.

Profile the patients (age and other demographics, morbidities, no. of births, epidemiological factors etc). Work out the number of beds, clinical episodes etc required and then decide the number of healthcare workers are required and set an adequate number of training places - the funded vacancies are already in place, just waiting. There are a number of secondary things that can be done like attracting back ex-nurses etc. There's not much more to it than that. The difficult bit is the doctoring and nursing, but they are great at that already.

OK, but are you saying that applications for these positions from people already residing in UK are far greater in number than those who are recruited to fulfil them? if so, how come there's a need for immigrant staff to fill in shortages? Might it actually be something to do with NHS underfunding instead? Just asking...

[Beef Oven!]

OK, but are you saying that applications for these positions from people already residing in UK are far greater in number than those who are recruited to fulfil them? if so, how come there's a need for immigrant staff to fill in shortages? Might it actually be something to do with NHS underfunding instead? Just asking...

Not underfunding. The posts are there ready and waiting to be filled. Often they are being covered by agency staff at premium cost.

The NHS does not provide sufficient training places. There's two ways to plan the workforce, the right way and the wrong way. No prizes for guessing how the NHS does it!

[french frank]

I posted this on the wrong thread (should have been Recent articles, news items). I think it's more interesting than a 'tedious' discussion on immigration between people with entrenched views; or on class warfare … .It reflects on the weak democracy that we have in this country: its improvement can much more realistically be expected than the overthrow of capitalism. And an improved democracy would also benefit 'the working classes', even under capitalism. In my view.

A thoughtful view on the conduct of the recent Irish referendum - including the information (of which I, at least, was unaware, that the No campaign employed some of the same people and tactics used by the Leave campaign, among others). Why was 'conservative' Ireland immune, when other democracies fell for them? Is this how democracy should be conducted?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...MCNEWEML6619I2

[Beef Oven!]

I posted this on the wrong thread (should have been Recent articles, news items). I think it's more interesting than a 'tedious' discussion on immigration between people with entrenched views; or on class warfare … .It reflects on the weak democracy that we have in this country: its improvement can much more realistically be expected than the overthrow of capitalism. And an improved democracy would also benefit 'the working classes', even under capitalism. In my view.

With respect ff, I don't think the recent discussion on immigration indicates 'entrenched' views. On the contrary, the discussion has been quite fluid (and respectful).

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes but that hasn't always been the case. I think I've mentioned before that in the earliest societies that could be called "urban", back in the Neolithic age, excavations haven't shown any significant differences in size between the dwellings in a city of between 5 000 and 10 000 inhabitants, which would seem to indicate a lack of class divisions. And of course the amount of cooperation necessary for the inevitable division of labour in keeping a place like that going must have outweighed the countervailing competitive "instincts". In other words, class society had an origin in time, for some reason, which might indicate that it could also have an end. Of course, a classless society under capitalism is a contradiction in terms.

I must have missed that, Richard. Fascinating. I would hazard a guess that class society's origins can be traced to early instances of over-grazing, and/or any climatological changes causing/resulting from/ this, resulting in competition and sometimes war between groups competing over shrinking resources. Societies governed by principles of conservation, as one reads was China for hundreds of years (Mead), would have been at the mercy of others less given to considerations of exhaustibility and negative environmental feedback. Once war become a prime motive of survival, organisation along class lines automatically follows, in my thinking.

[vinteuil]

I must have missed that, Richard. Fascinating. I would hazard a guess that class society's origins can be traced to early instances of over-grazing, and/or any climatological changes causing/resulting from/ this, resulting in competition and sometimes war between groups competing over shrinking resources. Societies governed by principles of conservation, as one reads was China for hundreds of years (Mead), would have been at the mercy of others less given to considerations of exhaustibility and negative environmental feedback. Once war become a prime motive of survival, organisation along class lines automatically follows, in my thinking.

... I also surmise that early specialisms such as metal-working would have been closely-guarded mysteries kept in certain families/extended families/castes - and similar developments in families who had skills of story-telling, divination, the beginnings of a 'separate' priestly group. And others wd have had the violent/selfish tendencies and strength/courage which might have enabled them to nab a disproportionate amount of the goods they wanted. Look at the hierarchies that operate in primates with alpha-male ruled socialization. I think the arrival of classes/castes not that surprizing, and probably inevitable.

.

[Joseph K]

I must have missed that, Richard. Fascinating. I would hazard a guess that class society's origins can be traced to early instances of over-grazing, and/or any climatological changes causing/resulting from/ this, resulting in competition and sometimes war between groups competing over shrinking resources. Societies governed by principles of conservation, as one reads was China for hundreds of years (Mead), would have been at the mercy of others less given to considerations of exhaustibility and negative environmental feedback. Once war become a prime motive of survival, organisation along class lines automatically follows, in my thinking.

From what I recall from Yanis Varoufakis's excellent Talking to my Daughter about the Economy, classes arose from the first development of a surplus. Societies that were situated in such environments where farming became necessary became the first develop a means to produce a surplus of goods, and everything followed on from this - the development of writing, hierarchy etc.

[Beef Oven!]

From what I recall from Yanis Varoufakis's excellent Talking to my Daughter about the Economy, classes arose from the first development of a surplus. Societies that were situated in such environments where farming became necessary became the first develop a means to produce a surplus of goods, and everything followed on from this - the development of writing, hierarchy etc.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This discussion has, from time to time, wandered wildly off-topic. Please do not go off on political rants, the consequence of which may be closure of what is potentially an interesting thread.

There are plenty of other internet forums for the discussion of immigration, the EU and other pet topics.

[Beef Oven!]

I must have missed that, Richard. Fascinating. I would hazard a guess that class society's origins can be traced to early instances of over-grazing, and/or any climatological changes causing/resulting from/ this, resulting in competition and sometimes war between groups competing over shrinking resources. Societies governed by principles of conservation, as one reads was China for hundreds of years (Mead), would have been at the mercy of others less given to considerations of exhaustibility and negative environmental feedback. Once war become a prime motive of survival, organisation along class lines automatically follows, in my thinking.

The over-grazing you mention, do you think it just happened for no special reason, or do you think it was wilful? I think there is an important distinction to be made (and Joseph's post #220 is relevant here).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This discussion has, from time to time, wandered wildly off-topic. Please do not go off on political rants, the consequence of which may be closure of what is potentially an interesting thread.

I don't think that anyone has "gone off on political rants", Alpie; not even frenchie ( ) - and I don't think that the Thread should be closed if anyone did: only if discussion (or, if you prefer, "ranting") deteriorated into mud-slinging and insults.

I'm quite impressed by the civility of the exchange of different views on this Thread - how such discussions should run, and how I hope this one will continue - even when we get back to the Thread title.

[Beef Oven!]

I don't think I agree with that point of view …

On another matter. A thoughtful view on the conduct of the recent Irish referendum - including the information (of which I, at least, was unaware, that the No campaign employed some of the same people and tactics used by the Leave campaign, among others). Why was 'conservative' Ireland immune, when other democracies fell for them? Is this how democracy should be conducted?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...MCNEWEML6619I2

A very interesting perspective. But I can't help thinking that it assumes (as maybe we all have lately!) that the way a referendum is conducted determines the outcome. It could be argued that the similarity between our 2016 referendum and the 2018 Irish referendum, is that public opinion had pretty much moved on, on both topics and the result reflected that. But credit to the Irish Yes campaign, if they behaved honestly and with political probity.