"Modernism", "Elitism", and "The Working Classes"

[french frank]

All this talk about Brexit is highly tedious, can we get back to modernism and class warfare please?

Sorry. Did not see this.

I don't find it tedious, but am happy to withdraw

[jean]

...Extrapolate ourselves?...

As extrapolation involves proceeding forward in some way from something already begun, I wonder if Beefy meant extricate?

[Beef Oven!]

As extrapolation involves proceeding forward in some way from something already begun, I wonder if Beefy meant extricate?

I too wonder if Beefy meant extricate.

But I hope you understood the direction of travel I was thinking of (?)

[Beef Oven!]

Sorry. Did not see this.

I don't find it tedious, but am happy to withdraw

I don't think it's tedious either. Off-topic, of course.

But I think it's interesting to test one's views against differing views.

And thanks ff for those interesting links.

[ahinton]

Here's a clue. The government had given an election pledge to reduce immigration to tens of thousands per year. It's actually gone up to around quarter of a million net per year, and obviously gross immigration levels are even higher. That's to say nothing of illegal immigration which, as you say, is uncontrolled. Any reasonable person would accept that the UK can't control the number of people who enter the country.

Quite, although that other election pledge that you mention was a nonsense and could never have been otherwise, as UK's ever increasing dependency upon immigrants demonstrates beyond question.

[ahinton]

All this talk about Brexit is highly tedious, can we get back to modernism and class warfare please?

I don't agree that it is necessarily tedious but I have tried - as you may or may not have noticed - on several occasions to encourage the discussion here to return to the issues put forward by the OP.

[Beef Oven!]

Quite, although that other election pledge that you mention was a nonsense and could never have been otherwise, as UK's ever increasing dependency upon immigrants demonstrates beyond question.

I don't understand why you think that the UK has a 'dependency on immigrants', never mind an 'increasing' one. You think that more and more immigration is inevitable and necessary? Unavoidable? Will it ever end?

The Green Party, IIRC, used to call for a reduction in population. They don't say that anymore. I'm not sure when or why they changed it - I always found it a fascinating idea (and a very good one). It's strange why these days we think that the population in the UK and Europe must keep going up and up. Why can't we work on it coming down?

[ahinton]

I don't understand why you think that the UK has a 'dependency on immigrants', never mind an 'increasing' one.

The Green Party, IIRC, used to call for a reduction in population. They don't say that anymore - I'm not sure why.

I think it only because it seems to be the case, largely because of a shortage of people needed to work in several industries in UK that appears not to be properly addressed by UK non-immigrant citizens.

I cannot comment on what you note about the Green Party's past views on population reduction or how they might have changed, except to say that a "reduction in population" overall is not at all the same as a reduction in immigrant population, legal or otherwise.

That said, I take due note of a friend from Sweden who spent several years living in Iran and who noted that one of the aspects of life there that he disliked and which made him the most uncomfortable was the sheer proportion of Iranians compared to non-Iranians living there; "almost as bad as Sweden", as he put it; I empathise with this, living in an England whose proportion of English residents strikes me as too high. OK, I'm an immigrant from Scotland but, even were I to live there again (which I have no plans to do), I'd almost certainly feel the same way about the Scottish population and for the same reasons.

[Beef Oven!]

I think it only because it seems to be the case, largely becasue of a shortage of people needed to work in several industries in UK that are not being met by UK non-immigrant citizens. I cannot comment on what you not about the Green Party's past views on population reduction or how they might have changed, except to say that a "reduction in population" overall is not at all the same as a reduction in immigrant population, legal or otherwise.

That said, I take due note of a friend from Sweden who spent several years living in Iran and who noted that one of the aspects of life there that he disliked and which made him the most uncomfortable was the sheer proportion of Iranians compared to non-Iranians living there; "almost as bad as Sweden", as he put it; I empathise with this, living in an England whose proportion of English residents strikes me as too high. OK, I'm an immigrant from Scotland but, even were I to live there again (which I have no plans to do), I'd almost certainly feel the same way about the Scottish population and for the same reasons.

Your friend will be pleased to note that Sweden has seriously improved their disgusting ratio of Swedes to non Swedes, over the last few years, and projections show the problem will be consigned to history in the not too distant future. Funny old world we live in ...............

[greenilex]

Managing population and population movement is not for the faint-hearted...just like labour problems as discussed above. In fact I wonder if the higher authority to which we entrust such matters has a book of rules and definitions we could use?

Explaining Future Work by UNExpert, perhaps? What will we do, or will we be able to do anything, without such a plan?

Will we want to?

[Beef Oven!]

Managing population and population movement is not for the faint-hearted...just like labour problems as discussed above. In fact I wonder if the higher authority to which we entrust such matters has a book of rules and definitions we could use?

Explaining Future Work by UNExpert, perhaps? What will we do, or will we be able to do anything, without such a plan?

Will we want to?

Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you clarify?

[teamsaint]

The nationality shown on passports is just one element of diversity.

The Media in the UK, both conservative and liberal seem desperately un- nuanced on the subject of immigration , population levels, and infrastructure/ resources.

[ahinton]

As extrapolation involves proceeding forward in some way from something already begun, I wonder if Beefy meant extricate?

Beef extract?...

[ahinton]

Your friend will be pleased to note that Sweden has seriously improved their disgusting ratio of Swedes to non Swedes, over the last few years, and projections show the problem will be consigned to history in the not too distant future. Funny old world we live in ...............

Er - could you please clarify what was "disgusting" and what the "problem" was?

[Richard Barrett]

Being opposed to immigration seems to involve establishing a fairly arbitrary cutoff point where all the successive waves of immigration into a place, over a period of millennia, are deemed to have been "enough", and all the richness of culture and identity in that place which has been the result of all those waves of immigration is deemed to have to be frozen as it is, or, more usually, frozen at a largely fictitious point a few years before the present. This attitude seems to me irrational and indeed counterproductive, and a distraction from issues that really need solving.