Vowels and consonants

[ardcarp]

But all actual human ears are part of speech communities, and will only 'hear' the sounds that occur within the languages they are familiar with.

I'm not sure I quite agree with all of that Jean , though (to use a horrid phrase) I hear what you're saying.

Some people are much better at acquiring 'foreign' vowel sounds than others. Example: One of my g'daughter's student friends is studying French at an English university. She is Spanish, but speaks English with only the merest trace of Spanish vowels. She was not brought up bi-lingual, and only learned English at school. I guess she probably speaks French quite well too. On the other side of the coin, a French friend of ours has lived in England all her married life (English hubby, etc) but still has a dreadful English accent, even though her use of language is assured and colloquial.

It depends on the ear and the brain, I guess.

[ardcarp]

That is ironic, given the great difficulty many of our generation had in pronouncing the French "u"; our teacher would guarantee we would get it right by pronouncing the word "mezeer" but with the lips pursed.

Ironic indeed. Similarly, our French teacher (back in the Stone Age) used to say, "Make your lips into the shape to say 'OO', but instead say 'EEE'."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The French u and the lazy English oo are produced in quite opposite ways, the latter being a voiced oo, with a mouthed ee.

[jean]

...She is Spanish, but speaks English with only the merest trace of Spanish vowels. She was not brought up bi-lingual, and only learned English at school...

I think that's the clue.

...Infants are born “citizens of the world” and can acquire any language easily. Until the age of 6 months, they discriminate the phonetic contrasts of all languages, something their parents are unable to do. By the end of the first year of life, infants show nascent specialization. Neural sensitivity to native-language phonetic units increases while the ability to discern phonetic differences in other languages declines...

Even when they've passed infancy, children have an abiity to master the sounds of a foreign language in a way that adults don't.

My niece and nephews spoke Welsh like natives -which they were in fact, though their parents weren't, and they did not learn Welsh until they went to school.

[Alain Maréchal]

Time to confess that I have never understood how to pronounce suit correctly. Sewt? Syewt? or something other? I was corrected so often, however I pronounced it, that I came to believe it was a shibboleth to identify foreign spies.

[Serial_Apologist]

Time to confess that I have never understood how to pronounce suit correctly. Sewt? Syewt? or something other? I was corrected so often, however I pronounced it, that I came to believe it was a shibboleth to identify foreign spies.

You've just reminded me, Alain: "sewt" or "soote", maybe, was one of the many pronunciations "elocuted out of me" when they discovered I had the best boy treble voice around for singing those solos in Purcell anthems in the school choir, but not the best accent!

[vinteuil]

You've just reminded me, Alain: "sewt" or "soote", maybe, was one of the many pronunciations "elocuted out of me" when they discovered I had the best boy treble voice around for singing those solos in Purcell anthems in the school choir, but not the best accent!

... and does your lute rhyme with mute or moot? And what about flute/flyute?

.

[Alain Maréchal]

"Silly Fellow" was used against me rather a lot when I attempted singing in English - but I really did name one cat Jeoffry (and his brother was Szwarter Piet which is no longer considered correct. Nederlandish speakers will understand the reference).

[ardcarp]

... and does your lute rhyme with mute or moot? And what about flute/flyute?

As a boy treble, I had to sing "Orpheus with his Lyute". I was told that 'Loot' was uncouth.

As far as 'sewt' and 'soot' are concerned, the latter is surely the accepted pronunciation today. Only double-brested twits like J. Rees Mogg would use the former!

and his brother was Szwarter Piet which is no longer considered correct. Nederlandish speakers will understand the reference

This from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

My father used to read Little Black Sambo to me at bedtime.

[greenilex]

I imagine other people have noticed that the world’s flashpoints usually coincide with alphabetic frontiers like the Balkan one mentioned above...if one needs a scapegoat, it must surely be that oaf down the road who insists on writing gibberish.

[Alain Maréchal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

Zwarte in The Netherlands, Szwarter in Blankenberge, Zworte in Incomprehensible Antwerpen (or Anvers, as I prefer). And you wonder how we govern ourselves.

[Serial_Apologist]

... and does your lute rhyme with mute or moot? And what about flute/flyute?

.

Moot, etc. Well you have at some point to decide on where your roots are most at home!

[greenilex]

I think it was quite common for crusaders to bring back a paynim body servant.

The Southampton hero Sir Bevis had a dark skinned giant named Ascupart.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think that's the clue.

...Infants are born “citizens of the world” and can acquire any language easily. Until the age of 6 months, they discriminate the phonetic contrasts of all languages, something their parents are unable to do. By the end of the first year of life, infants show nascent specialization. Neural sensitivity to native-language phonetic units increases while the ability to discern phonetic differences in other languages declines...

Even when they've passed infancy, children have an abiity to master the sounds of a foreign language in a way that adults don't.

My niece and nephews spoke Welsh like natives -which they were in fact, though their parents weren't, and they did not learn Welsh until they went to school.

Some friends in Spain adopted an orphan boy from Bulgaria, when he was six years old. The cultural crossover was a success in this instance, and I met the boy in Segovia when he had been with the family for only six months. He could already speak fluent Spanish (and told me I couldn't be cross with him for treating his hamster roughly, because I was his friend). Nine years later, when his adoptive mother tried to help him to learn English, he found learning a new language much more difficult. He struggled greatly, though his pronunciation was excellent.

[greenilex]

Towards the end of a pregnancy, the developing foetus is already responding to the rhythms of their mother’s speech, and I would surmise listening carefully to her speech patterns.