University Lecturers' Strike

[Lat-Literal]

Unusually, I don't have a lot to say about this matter. However, I seem to recall at the back of my mind that I first heard about the USS in connection with some controversy. Was it something about investment in or via companies at the time of the financial crash? It is there in my thoughts with the sudden revelation that in many a local authority scheme were Icelandic banks. I don't really understand higher education now. Who is employed by the state and who is employed by the private sector. It strikes me that the proposals may well be in line with what has happened throughout the public sector. In the Civil Service, it wasn't as if all pension amounts were retrospectively changed but that the calculation of future amounts would be substantially different from a certain point. I left as that was happening and the train fares went up so that I wouldn't be working full time for a minus figure salary.

(Not that I had any choice)

[ardcarp]

FF. I confess to being a bit out of my depth here! I would just mention that in the city where my daughter works NONE OF THE SCHOOLS HAS SIXTH FORMS, so all A-level students (bar those at independent schools) go to the College.

[teamsaint]

I for one haven't forgiven Labour for introducing tuition fees, although of course it got much worse later.

If people don't think that an extra 9% deduction at marginal rates is burdonsome, they might consider what the response would be to such a tax proposal on, say, income from property, or incomes over £150k, or on pensioner incomes over £30k to harmonise their contributions with working people.

[ardcarp]

I for one haven't forgiven Labour for introducing tuition fees, although of course it got much worse later.

Yes, 3X worse And I thought Clegg was a nice bloke.......

[french frank]

I for one haven't forgiven Labour for introducing tuition fees, although of course it got much worse later.

Read that research paper, team. I took comfort (somewhat) in the fact that 'Labour started it'. Now I think they were right, and if I'm wrong about that, so is that research paper. Contest their arguments.

Whether 'an extra 9%' is burdensome or not, you don't need a maths degree to understand that '9% of income above a given threshold' is exactly the same as '9% on income above a given threshold'. Except that if the threshold is raised, it is not 'much worse' it is better.

[greenilex]

I think you have to factor in the unintended results, for example the flight of graduates overseas to escape repayments.

[teamsaint]

I think you have to factor in the unintended results, for example the flight of graduates overseas to escape repayments.

Is there evidence for this flight ?
It may be happening, but the SLC certainly chase people abroad, and are prepared to ask what some people might regard as rather intrusive questions in order to get payments made.
I have seen some of their letters........

[french frank]

Is there evidence for this flight ?
It may be happening, but the SLC certainly chase people abroad, and are prepared to ask what some people might regard as rather intrusive questions in order to get payments made.
I have seen some of their letters........

Yes, I'm not sure why people would think that going abroad would 'escape repayments' unless they deliberately tried to keep below the radar - yet still find legitimate employment where they will be better paid and/or pay less tax than staying in the UK and paying up.

[french frank]

And this is a consideration of the German system: no tuition fees, 'free' university education.

“Behind closed doors, many education ministers around the country will admit that phasing out tuition fees was a wrong move,” said Dieter Dohmen, director of Germany’s Institute for Education and Socio-Economic Research. With student numbers rising and regional governments failing to increase spending, “universities are groaning under the weight of the costs”, he said.

Merkel’s government is determined to push through a “debt brake” by 2020, stopping the states from racking up any more structural deficits.

“If the government goes through with its plans, then we have a big debate about tuition fees around the corner,” said Dohmen. “My prediction is that we will have reintroduced tuition fees by 2020.”

And that's a country where, as I said earlier, 27% go to university which makes the cost more affordable than with 48% as here (okay, I said 47% which was almost right).

[Serial_Apologist]

And this is a consideration of the German system: no tuition fees, 'free' university education.

“Behind closed doors, many education ministers around the country will admit that phasing out tuition fees was a wrong move,” said Dieter Dohmen, director of Germany’s Institute for Education and Socio-Economic Research. With student numbers rising and regional governments failing to increase spending, “universities are groaning under the weight of the costs”, he said.

Merkel’s government is determined to push through a “debt brake” by 2020, stopping the states from racking up any more structural deficits.

“If the government goes through with its plans, then we have a big debate about tuition fees around the corner,” said Dohmen. “My prediction is that we will have reintroduced tuition fees by 2020.”

And that's a country where, as I said earlier, 27% go to university which makes the cost more affordable than with 48% as here (okay, I said 47% which was almost right).

And Germany's economy is in a much stronger position than ours (is likely to be) to be able to subsidise said universities.

[greenilex]

Re graduate flight, I only have family evidence, and that is quite bad enough.

[french frank]

And Germany's economy is in a much stronger position than ours (is likely to be) to be able to subsidise said universities.

The whole question of university finance has become hugely more complex in an age when it has seemed right to end a system whereby 'your' 'ruling classes' were the beneficiaries, cementing their position.

I've been doing some figures (sorry RAJAR, haven't had time) on the repayment implications for someone who I will call 'ardcarp's daughter' - a young graduate teaching in an FE college.

She is earning £30,000 pa. NIC allowances on the basis of 0% below £157pw, so I've converted employee deductions to weekly amounts:

Inc. tax = £71pw
NI Cont = £50 pw
SL debt = £8.65 pw

In other words, if ardcarp's daughter didn't have to repay this debt, she could stop and treat herself every day (Mon-Fri) to a Starbucks espresso, even a double some days, but not every day because they cost £1.90 each, or £9.50 pw.

I don't need to know what her tuition fees were or how big her debt is because these figures are irrelevant to her deductions. She will be paying the same weekly/monthly amount, whether the fees were £9,000 or £90,000.

Oh: E&OE (they are based on the new threshold level of £25,000)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

She is earning £30,000 pa. NIC allowances on the basis of 0% below £157pw, so I've converted employee deductions to weekly amounts:

Inc. tax = £71pw
NI Cont = £50 pw
SL debt = £8.65 pw

In other words, if ardcarp's daughter didn't have to repay this debt, she could stop and treat herself every day (Mon-Fri) to a Starbucks espresso, even a double some days, but not every day because they cost £1.90 each, or £9.50 pw.

I don't need to know what her tuition fees were or how big her debt is because these figures are irrelevant to her deductions. She will be paying the same weekly/monthly amount, whether the fees were £9,000 or £90,000.

Oh: E&OE (they are based on the new threshold level of £25,000)

This is about right. And as FF suggests, "AD" will not have to pay off the debt if her salary remains at this level.

Until, that is, some future administration decides to move the goalposts, tearing up existing agreements (as has happened with pensions, RPI/CPI, public service contracts, etc.) and requires these loans to be paid off in full. It could happen, and there are those who would like it to happen.

[Dave2002]

Many youngish people I know have the student debt, and are paying it off slowly. I only know one person - possibly the youngest of them all - who managed to get a job in an area which I feel is dubious (banking, spread betting etc.) who decided to pay it all off, though he is working in a technical area so not directly responsible for all the financial and other ills which seem to beset this one of the allegedly economically up there in the top ten countries. Whether it is better to have better educated young people in the areas of music, literature, even science and mathematics rather than in finance - I couldn't possibly comment.

My current view is that education is about helping people to become "good" (whatever that is) members of society, and to help others where sensible, and to not trash the environment. Whether education is really achieving that - maybe? The alternatives are probably worse.

[french frank]

I only know one person - possibly the youngest of them all - who managed to get a job in an area which I feel is dubious (banking, spread betting etc.) who decided to pay it all off

Which is precisely what the experts advise people not to do. Should Dad pay off my debt? He can pay it off in full if he wants want to, but the likelihood is he will be paying off unnecessarily what the graduate will never need to. But, hey, what are Dads for?

The whole system works, intentionally, on the basis of reverse sliding contributions, from graduate 0%/government 100% to graduate 100%/government 0% depending on the graduate's 30-year earnings. (In fact the very wealthiest pay off slightly less than the fairly wealthy because they pay off before the interest rates kick in.)

EA has a point about a radical change of policy, though the chance that this would affect graduates under the 2009 or 2012 schemes is unlikely. When/If those changes are made, that would be the time to go to the barricades.