Degrees

[Historian]

Many schools are already advising most students to study 3 A-levels instead of the 4 which was standard in the days of the AS and A2 division. However, the era of multiple resits had already ended, as A-level students had been restricted to one resit some time before the old system ended.

[Conchis]

I graduated in 1988. My department, like many in those days, had a policy of giving Firsts only in extremely exceptional circumstances. No-one in my year got one.

Yet nowadays, it's so common to get a 'First' that you must feel some kind of academic failure if you only get a mere 2.1.

Should those of us who graduated with 2.1s before the 'expansion' of higher education automatically upgrade ourselves to Firsts, given that that's what we would have got had we been born some years later? I think there may be a case for it.

Yet this is an age-old story: in his Diary, Cecil King speaks of the belief that a doctor who qualified after, say, 1960 is probably some sort of quack and not to be trusted.

[ardcarp]

The grades at O and A level were of concern in those cases where they represented the gateway to further education. Entry to 6th Form at my school was dependent on passing your O levels at sufficient standard, and of course uni entry would be conditional on grades.

Yes of course that was always the case. We knew the score. But I think we took responsibility for our level of work and achievement; and in lessons I feel we were much more roundly educated. I don't think grades were ever discussed except at the time of Mock Exams. One of my grand-daughters (who goes to a somewhat pressured school) says they don't teach or discuss anything that isn't directly related to exams and grades.

I was discussing this with an old schoolfriend a few weeks back. We agreed that among our year, something like 80-100 pupils, we could only think of two who might have got what would now be called 'straight As' (never mind A*s).

Yes. That was my experience too.

I know this thread makes most of us sound like a load of old fogeys. But, rose-tinted spectacles off, I think we probably got a fuller, more rounded, possibly more waccy and eccentric education. I suspect that some of that ethos probably exists still in the independent sector, but that teachers in the maintained sector are scared to death to do anything beyond manning the exam factory.

[Lat-Literal]

I was discussing this with an old schoolfriend a few weeks back. We agreed that among our year, something like 80-100 pupils, we could only think of two who might have got what would now be called 'straight As' (never mind A*s). They were bright, but even they might have nodded on the all-important exam days. Now, students actually aim for - and really hope to get - what we would never have dreamed of. And they take more subjects than we took

I was about third in my junior school in terms of academic ability; I achieved way in excess of what was anticipated at the 11 plus stage - in other words, along with the other two, I passed when the head teacher had been adamant there was no point in anyone trying (although he had a political angle); I was 120th of 120 pupils in Years 1 and 2 at senior school.

Of the eight passes, I got just one A grade at O'level - about what was expected by my senior school but much worse than I had anticipated; the A'level results were significantly better but not outstanding and the grades for better and worse were at odds with what the teachers had predicted; and the degree was very good - as good as I could possibly have achieved - a repeat of what had happened 11 years earlier. Then I was a total under-achiever in the workplace although in temporary jobs beforehand I had been lauded and people had begged me to stay. On this basis, I doubt that I believe in people just nodding on all-important examination days. In the case of some of us, we are too variable for grades to indicate anything.

As a footnote:

There was no correlation between effort and achievement. If anything the living up to potential occurred when I tried slightly less. But my emotions did play a big part. There was no anxiety around the 11 plus as I didn't know what I was getting involved in and I had no expectations of passing. It just sounded like a fun way of spending three Saturday mornings.

1 11 Plus (A Top 13 boy in the Calendar Year in the Croydon Borough)

2 A, B, B, B, B, B, C, C, E (Should have been B, A, A, A, B, C, B, C, U)

3 B, B, D (Should have been A, C, B)

4. 2 :1 Hons (A Top 6 UK University)

5 Oblivion (1985-2018 - excluding football, festivals and being at UN)

I did get the Oxford form but ducked it.

With my unpredictable abandonment at 11, I would have passed it "to everyone's surprise". But with seven years of baggage - and weighed down by reality - I'd have missed by miles.

[Dave2002]

Coursework? This has had effects in the last few decades both at school and at university level.

Plagiarism. This is rife, and very hard to stamp out. Many students are decent, and do their own work (or maybe in some cases their parents do it ..)
but some pay to get work done for them, which means that virtually nothing goes into their noddles which they understand.

Oral exams. These were probably always rare, but can be used to check whether students really understood the work when they answered written questions.

Lack of rigour. I believe that in subjects such as maths that proofs are now almost a dirty word.

Experimental subjects, or subjects in which some experiments may be valuable. Experiments hard or expensive to do, or Health and Safety prohibits them. Students don't get to work with physical systems - but maybe "virtual" ones - if at all.

Teachers. Not all are good - some don't know the subject matter which they are presenting. Also, some students may prefer to be entertained, so will rate teachers who entertain them higher than those who try to get them to think. Some brilliant teachers can entertain and get students to think, but few are really that good.

Social pressures within departments may tend to favour staff who are liked by students (see previous point) over ones who try to get students to work.

Adjustment of marks following assessments. Most marks for assessments are adjusted to try to minimise the number of failing students - at least in some establishments. This can have weird effects depending how it's done. The external examiner "system" attempts to create a fair playing field between different institutions, but it can't/doesn't fix all the problems.

The above factors, plus a few more, have all had an effect in both secondary and tertiary education over the last few decades.

[french frank]

I suspect that some of that ethos probably exists still in the independent sector, but that teachers in the maintained sector are scared to death to do anything beyond manning the exam factory.

I went to what would be called an 'Independent' school, albeit with a local authority scholarship (11+). The range of ability was wide since the vast majority of pupils were there because their parents could pay the fees. But, I think the school was totally relaxed about exam achievement. They had good, well qualified teachers and were confident that on a statistical basis, the bright ones would do as well as usual and the less bright ones would do less well - also as usual. The bright ones who wanted to go to university would get the necessary qualifications and the others wouldn't and weren't that bothered.

That is another basis on which you would have expected the smaller university intake to be 'good students'. Yet we've seen agreement that in our day there were few or no Firsts each year, with a 2.2 being the average.

Grades are very blunt instruments if they rely solely on raw numbers: 70+ First, 60-69 2.1, 50-59 2.2. There have to be criteria in subjects where exam essays don't automatically convert into numbers. How do you define a "first"? 70+ isn't a satisfactory answer.

[doversoul1]

This many not apply to all universities but what I have learned about university education today is something completely different from what we understood in out time. Nowadays, newly recruited lectures are required to attend teacher training courses and even at Post graduate level, pair work and group work are encouraged. They are teachers rather than lecturers. With all this, I’m not surprised if final grading is based on tests (assessment in all but name) and not (what we know as)assessment. If this is the case, of course, ‘teachers’ are expected to ensure that their students (pupils) will pass with as high marks as possible.

Is mass university education a good thing? Discuss....

[ardcarp]

It is good to hear the AB[RS]M exam standards are being maintained. Do you think that might have something to do with them being practical exams, and does the same also apply to things like dance? Playing a scale or performing a particular step are not really open to levels of interpretation in the same way that an essay topic might be.

I don't really know the answer to that. I agree that it is quite easy to judge whether a piece of music, however simple, is being played in tune and in time. A little harder to quantify in marks, perhaps, are such matters as good musical phrasing and a sense of musicality, but it's what examiners do. The AB could have lowered the bar by setting easier pieces, and even to some extent by making Merit and Distinction easier to get. But in my view they haven't. Grade I and Grade VIII piano are certainly as demanding as they ever were, and I gather the same goes for other instruments.

Thinking about your premise more carefully, I don't think the maintenance of standards in music exams is related to the practical nature of music.
The music colleges have managed to keep their integrity, whereas we all know that school and university education has been a political football.

[Lat-Literal]

This many not apply to all universities but what I have learned about university education today is something completely different from what we understood in out time. Nowadays, newly recruited lectures are required to attend teacher training courses and even at Post graduate level, pair work and group work are encouraged. They are teachers rather than lecturers. With all this, I’m not surprised if final grading is based on tests (assessment in all but name) and not (what we know as)assessment. If this is the case, of course, ‘teachers’ are expected to ensure that their students (pupils) will pass with as high marks as possible.

Is mass university education a good thing? Discuss....

I don't know. We were part examined and part assessed on course work just as at A level. I know I got a 68. a fair few 65s and 62s, and one that was so low it could have dragged me down to a 2:2 had it been lower. There was no obvious pattern in the marks between the examined parts and the assessed parts. What I know about the bad mark is that everyone I knew had finished their exams. I had one to go. I got talked by others into joining their celebrations and it nearly messed up my overall mark. Crucially, I knew that I was extremely uncomfortable in seminars and appeared so. I was able to assess from feedback on my written work which tutors were judging me on that point. The American woman wrote on two occasions that I lacked fire. Consequently, I avoided most of what she arranged so that she forgot me. Instead, I would speak at length to those who had attended to find out what was said and what I was supposed to be reading. Suddenly, I was getting my essays returned from her saying "this is passionate and wonderfully fiery". The strategy had totally worked.

It is not my wish to portray myself as a special case as most people didn't ever quite see me in that way. In fact, I would have been regarded as a typical student but then I worked as hard on that as on anything else. In later years, I strongly concluded that the surprising eleven plus success had emanated from trauma at seven. It was a combination of that trauma and absolute denial that it had ever been experienced which led to the blasé emergence of ability then and again with more effort at 22. It was precisely the same trauma that was responsible for the unsuccessful strand at 12 and 23 when it completely overwhelmed. University was a good experience for me. I am tempted to say that anyone who has a feeling of needing another life dimension should jump at the chance especially if they sense that it will help with aspects of integration. At the same time, I am not so sure that I would have felt the same if I had taken out huge loans for the duration. Nor would that have been the case if there had been such an emphasis on hard nosed competition up to and into employment.

I think there is something else.

Like many of a lower middle class background at the time, I grew up in a small world. There was no internet and less television. We didn't have foreign holidays. I felt more comfortable with the working classes because of wider family than I ever felt with the professional classes but I didn't find either easy. There were, of course, few people of other racial backgrounds. So the leap was huge. It was like moving to another country. I am not sure that even those on the council estates would feel that way today. Often having more confidence and access to information, what they are less likely to have is a nervy, adventurous and rewarding sense of search. Many will say that what they will get is greater connection with people from more privileged backgrounds which in turn enables them to become career professionals. I feel for them in that regard. That was a key part of my experience in my teenage years which was never overcome. What university actually did for me was bring me into touch with the brightest people from comprehensive etc schools. It was the grammar school I had wanted.

[Dave2002]

There are some good things about present day education, both in schools and higher education institutions.

Generally the computer facilities are quite good, though many students use their own computers. Access to information is also generally rather good, though questions may be raised about the quality of some of the information sources. Further, for some subject areas there is a lot of audio visual material, which may help - compared with students having to read. On the other hand one does wonder whether some students really ever got into reading, and now they perhaps don't have to. Writing has become quite seriously obsolete, which means that some students have hand writing which is even worse than my own.
There is little doubt that students' experiences at university now are very different from those of much earlier students.

[Historian]

I have just read that some universities discount (i.e. ignore) the lowest scoring module when calculating students' degree classification. This is according to a report conducted by 'Universities UK' and 'Guild HE'. There was also substantial variation in the process by which universities calculated degree classifications, with some institutions giving differing weight to modules from different years of study. This might help explain the growing proportion of First and Upper Second class degrees.

The report was published in October 2017 and is available here:

http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/policy-and-analysis/reports/Documents/2017/understanding-degree-algorithms.pdf#search=discounting

[Dave2002]

4. Classification boundaries are clearly defined and institutions should not engage in activity that undermines this existing convention.

p52
That's about as clear as the mud in the woods after rain.

The boundaries might be clear in numeric terms, but what they mean is not obvious. Also, with all the adjustments who is to say what the final results really mean?

What existing convention?

[ardcarp]

Not sure if this is in the right place. But on the R4 Today programme there was an item about severe cuts to arts funding in schools. At least some people are noticing.

[MrGongGong]

Not sure if this is in the right place. But on the R4 Today programme there was an item about severe cuts to arts funding in schools. At least some people are noticing.

Indeed

Given the obsession with "literusea", rearrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying

Stable Horse Door The Bolted Locking After Has The

[Padraig]

Given the obsession with "literusea", rearrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying

Stable Horse Door The Bolted Locking After Has The

Its oblivious, innit :

The horse has bolted after locking the stable door.