NHS 'crisis'

[Beef Oven!]

Making degree-entry to nursing and midwifery compulsory must have deterred many with aptitude for nursing.

It probably has. But remember, 50% of young people go to university these days, so it's not the show-stopper that it would have been in our day.

The real problem of it becoming a degree level entry profession IMHO, is that it's part of an over-professionalisation of nursing at the sake of the 'caring values'. In my opinion, we have many technically trained nurses, but the caring side has suffered. Modern nurses in my experience don't sufficiently share the caring values of the NHS. It's not their fault of course, it's the fault of the leading thinkers and directors of modern nursing.

[kernelbogey]

It probably has. But remember, 50% of young people go to university these days, so it's not the show-stopper that it would have been in our day.

The real problem of it becoming a degree level entry profession IMHO, is that it's part of an over-professionalisation of nursing at the sake of the 'caring values'. In my opinion, we have many technically trained nurses, but the caring side has suffered. Modern nurses in my experience don't sufficiently share the caring values of the NHS. It's not their fault of course, it's the fault of the leading thinkers and directors of modern nursing.

[french frank]

(BUT: I'm a little uncomfortable with us poaching experience from elsewhere, be it India or Latvia - we should be able to produce enough doctors in our own multicultural country)

I agree with that - up to a point: the point being that we don't train enough doctors and nurses. Though there has been, in the past, a distinction between 'poaching' from India, the Philippines &c and 'trading' between the EU and here. If there is a deficit here, the question would then be - why? Working for the NHS these days is no holiday.

[teamsaint]

Interesting facts here.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/

The obvious conclusion to draw from the difference between the proportion of EU ( non British) doctors compared to nurses working in the UK would be in pay scales compared to other European countries.
Perhaps there is something else though ?

But FF is right, we simply don't train enough people.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I agree with that - up to a point: the point being that we don't train enough doctors and nurses. Though there has been, in the past, a distinction between 'poaching' from India, the Philippines &c and 'trading' between the EU and here. If there is a deficit here, the question would then be - why? Working for the NHS these days is no holiday.

Is there a deeper issue about the number of UK university places available to train doctors? From my very limited contact with medical students in the 70s, entry standards were set very high, and this makes a lot of sense because they don't want failures and drop-outs on such an expensive course. And of course there must be big pressures not to increase finals pass-rates by 'dumbing down', because deaths could so easily result

[teamsaint]

Is there a deeper issue about the number of UK university places available to train doctors? From my very limited contact with medical students in the 70s, entry standards were set very high, and this makes a lot of sense because they don't want failures and drop-outs on such an expensive course. And of course there must be big pressures not to increase finals pass-rates by 'dumbing down', because deaths could so easily result

So if the UK cant find enough people ( or proportion of people) of the correct calibre, which countries can ?Sounds like a failure in the selection processes and lack of training places to me. All the less forgiveable now that students are having to borrow heavily to go through Med school.

[LeMartinPecheur]

So if the UK cant find enough people ( or proportion of people) of the correct calibre, which countries can ?Sounds like a failure in the selection processes and lack of training places to me. All the less forgiveable now that students are having to borrow heavily to go through Med school.

[cloughie]

There are probably enough trained but not retained in the NHS. How many trained doctors choose to become eg MPs or comedians rather than knuckling down to be GPs?

[french frank]

There are probably enough trained but not retained in the NHS. How many trained doctors choose to become eg MPs or comedians rather than knuckling down to be GPs?

According to this, many see the hospital as a more attractive career (as well as becoming MPs or comedians).

[ardcarp]

It's probably a terribly old-fashioned view, but I'd like to see people becoming GPs, nurses, midwives, etc from a sense of vocation. It costs a small fortune to train them, and it seems terribly wasteful if after a few years they chuck it in. I'm not suggesting they should be 'bound' to serve for x number of years after qualifying, but it would be great if the system/society allowed them to enjoy their work. (Same applies to teachers, no doubt.)

[Serial_Apologist]

According to this, many see the hospital as a more attractive career (as well as becoming MPs or comedians).

Preference for working in a more collaborative environment, I wonder?

[MrGongGong]

It's probably a terribly old-fashioned view, but I'd like to see people becoming GPs, nurses, midwives, etc from a sense of vocation. It costs a small fortune to train them, and it seems terribly wasteful if after a few years they chuck it in. I'm not suggesting they should be 'bound' to serve for x number of years after qualifying, but it would be great if the system/society allowed them to enjoy their work. (Same applies to teachers, no doubt.)

When I work with undergraduate music students I sometimes ask the most imaginative, creative, communicative and interesting ones why they don't consider becoming music teachers. The answer is always that they have no desire to be in a constant state of chaos, to be pushed around by people who have no belief in the existence of arts education and they have more interesting things they would like to do. Those who are passionately committed to working with people often train to be music therapists.

From the conversations I've had with a couple of recently qualified doctors, there is a very similar pattern.
There is no problem with a sense of "vocation" but they can see how the NHS is being prepared to be sold off and have no faith in those in charge.

Would you eat at a restaurant where all the staff go to a place round the corner for their lunch?
Like education, unless those who make the political decisions about it actually use it (and I don't mean just the fancy, hi-tech sexy bits) nothing will change.

[french frank]

Preference for working in a more collaborative environment, I wonder?

I think there was the suggestion that 'teamwork' was appealing (or I read it in another article while digging around). Partnerships didn't work in that way (business side) and there was 'relative isolation' in the medical responsibility.

[un barbu]

When I work with undergraduate music students I sometimes ask the most imaginative, creative, communicative and interesting ones why they don't consider becoming music teachers. The answer is always that they have no desire to be in a constant state of chaos, to be pushed around by people who have no belief in the existence of arts education and they have more interesting things they would like to do. Those who are passionately committed to working with people often train to be music therapists.

From the conversations I've had with a couple of recently qualified doctors, there is a very similar pattern.
There is no problem with a sense of "vocation" but they can see how the NHS is being prepared to be sold off and have no faith in those in charge.

Would you eat at a restaurant where all the staff go to a place round the corner for their lunch?
Like education, unless those who make the political decisions about it actually use it (and I don't mean just the fancy, hi-tech sexy bits) nothing will change.

I couldn't agree more. I left teaching at 53, the sale of a terraced house in S London giving me enough to buy a small property in Stirlingshire and exist on what was the minimum wage until my pension arrived. It was a struggle but a damned sight better than suffering under the grinding managerialism that had taken over even a school in the ludicrously misnomered 'independent sector.'

[kernelbogey]

The Guardian reported on 29 December

In the run-up to Christmas non-emergency calls to the NHS hotline reached 396,262, the highest level for 2017 and up on the previous week.

I take it this refers to NHS111. While I have no direct experience of calling this line, I believe that the diagnostic process is IT driven, albeit delivered by staff in a call centre; and that a high proportion of calls end in a referral to a GP or A&E Department.

I wonder whether the overloading of A&E Departments is, in part, due to this service, which I believe was intended to relieve pressure on GP surgeries (presumably by offering low-level medical advice).

Anyone know....?