The Grand Tour

[Alain Maréchal]

If one invites somebody to a meal or a drink, one expects, as the invitor (I cannot think of a more suitable word) to pay the bill. A "Dutch Treat" I understand, is one where the invitor expects the invitee to pay half, thus insulting the Dutch by insinuating their miserliness. Most of the explanations in that Guardian reference smell of folk etymology, and although Mr Brooke of Kinmuck seems closest to a likely explanation, it is questionable that at the time The Netherlands was "a small nation state" .

Afterthought: I am not certain that I have ever been involved in a Dutch Treat. In my experience it has always been clear from the start who is paying. Me.

[Sir Velo]

If one invites somebody to a meal or a drink, one expects, as the invitor (I cannot think of a more suitable word) to pay the bill. A "Dutch Treat" I understand, is one where the invitor expects the invitee to pay half, thus insulting the Dutch by insinuating their miserliness. Most of the explanations in that Guardian reference smell of folk etymology, and although Mr Brooke of Kinmuck seems closest to a likely explanation, it is questionable that at the time The Netherlands was "a small nation state" .

Yes, you need to take cognisance of Mr Brooke of Kinmuck's nationality, which may go someway to explaining his particular viewpoint.

[jean]

If one invites somebody to a meal or a drink, one expects, as the invitor (I cannot think of a more suitable word) to pay the bill. A "Dutch Treat" I understand, is one where the invitor expects the invitee to pay half, thus insulting the Dutch by insinuating their miserliness.

The phrase is mostly used now for an arragement between couples. And 'going Dutch' has largely replaced the earlier 'Dutch treat', which did indeed imply meanness on the part of the invitor, since the 'treat' was no 'treat' at all.

However, what may not be widely known among posters here is that the invitor sometimes expects some recompense in kind from the invitee.

Therefore the invitee is wise to make it clear at the outset that such recompense will not be forthcoming.

[Lat-Literal]

Thank you very much for the excellent contributions. They are informative and also helping me to try to talk myself fully into it. I find that it is the need to get across London first that is the most daunting prospect. As the contributions show, it is also a wider opportunity for discussion on the eastern side of England which very arguably is often underplayed. RT - I was slightly surprised about your choice of the area framed by Aldeburgh, Southwold, the A12 and the sea as your favourite part of England and encouraged by it. I will PM you. Thanks too to gradus, Alain and Caliban for other interesting suggestions in that area. Does anyone have any information or tips about the following - any music connections in the area including navigation of Snape Maltings; possible links to Beowulf and any Beowulf trail; and further south any commemoration at Dedham Vale of Constable Country? Pianorak - not sure quite what to make of your comment in relation to Beccles Airfield but if the implication is that the rest of that area is unremarkable, I just want to see for an hour where my late godfather lived for a while. S-A - Durham Cathedral sounds interesting. Somehow I have never set foot in the City of Durham. And yes no car. It would be trains and buses if and when it occurs.

I know that what I say of the past is mostly accurate but can't feel sure whether this sudden plan is fact or fantasy.

Also contemplating how to get a ticket for Newcastle Utd if that is ever possible for someone who just turns up there.

That could be one of the least likely bits of all.

[gradus]

[QUOTE=Lat-Literal;631364]Thank you very much for the excellent contributions. They are informative and also helping me to try to talk myself fully into it. I find that it is the need to get across London first that is the most daunting prospect. As the contributions show, it is also a wider opportunity for discussion on the eastern side of England which very arguably is often underplayed. RT - I was slightly surprised about your choice of the area framed by Aldeburgh, Southwold, the A12 and the sea as your favourite part of England and encouraged by it. I will PM you. Thanks too to gradus, Alain and Caliban for other interesting suggestions in that area. Does anyone have any information or tips about the following - any music connections in the area including navigation of Snape Maltings; possible links to Beowulf and any Beowulf trail; and further south any commemoration at Dedham Vale of Constable Country? Pianorak - not sure quite what to make of your comment in relation to Beccles Airfield but if the implication is that the rest of that area is unremarkable, I just want to see for an hour where my late godfather lived for a while. S-A - Durham Cathedral sounds interesting. Somehow I have never set foot in the City of Durham. And yes no car. It would be trains and buses if and when it occurs.

I know that what I say of the past is mostly accurate but can't feel sure whether this sudden plan is fact or fantasy.

Also contemplating how to get a ticket for Newcastle Utd if that is ever possible for someone who just turns up there. ]

Snape Maltings is easy to find and to walk around and only gets really crowded when popular concerts are on.
I don't know of a Beowulf trail but there's a UFO trail (!) three miles long in Rendlesham Forest which quite apart from its fame amongst 'Ufologists' is an extremely pleasant place with way-marked walks of 6 and 12 miles if you're feeling energetic. Sutton Hoo is only down the road and Rendlesham village is worth a visit if you're interested in the possible location of Raedwald's palace - there are other village claimants to that particular honour close-by.
Dedham is a bit touristy in high season because it attracts so many people, partly because Flatford Mill and East Bergholt -both Constable mainstays are next door. Of more interest (imv) in Dedham is Sir Alfred Munnings's house which contains a great collection of his work and extraordinarily fine it is too. A little further away is Sudbury which has Gainsborough's house and a collection of his works.
If you come, I am sure you won't be short of things to see and do.

[Nick Armstrong]

While drinking it you might care to reflect on the Battle of Sole Bay, which, although inconclusive, and leading to great loss of ships and men on both sides, is now seen as beginning the decline of the Netherlands' domination of the sea, and the rise of Britain's. History's turning points occur at odd times and in odd places, not always recognised when happening. Credit to Sebald, not me.

There are worse places to read Rings of Saturn than sat outside that pub.

[french frank]

Yes, you need to take cognisance of Mr Brooke of Kinmuck's nationality, which may go someway to explaining his particular viewpoint.

I used to visit friends actually in Kinmuck. The Grand Tour indeed ("I've been everywhere, boy").

[Lat-Literal]

I used to visit friends actually in Kinmuck. The Grand Tour indeed ("I've been everywhere, boy").

That's Johnny Cash 'specially adapted - or somethin' else even more famous.

I will do my final bit of writin' for tonight.

Easy as it has already been done because I was asked "Why Canewdon?" by the one friend who might just join me for one section:

The importance of walking east is helpful advice. The point about long walks and heavy packs is these days assumed. My Mum had two aunts who moved there just before the war. It was very rural then. They lived in small houses but the land was borderline farm. These were South Londoners so I think the one who had a husband. Well, he had a motor garage possibly in nearby Rochford. Not sure. They weren't rural people. Anyhow, after several things landed from the sky next door to where my Mum and her mother were living in London they were given the opportunity to go out there for a while - not easy to get to - and I think they also took my Mum's best friend who may at that time have been Patsy Crow who we are reasonably sure was related in some way to the trade unionist the late Bob Crow. Anyway, they took a walk towards the Estuary - it's big on estuary if the map and the RSPB are anything to go by - and were in a bit of woodland. All of a sudden my Nan became a bit panicky and said "oh my gawd, Edna, there's a man, run, run, run" and sure enough there was a man, a German, dressed in German uniform against a tree. (Well, you did ask!). They didn't exactly run because he was slumped but they got out pretty sharpish and they weren't sure if he was injured or dead. When they got back to the houses my mother's uncle accused them of having over-active imaginations. But it turned out in the paper the next week that a man was there and yes he was dead. His plane had been shot down. Well, even there it wasn't quite as quiet as they expected so that had been heard but it was just another sound.

Mum has happy memories of those few days. It was atmospheric and in comparison to the Walworth Road like a different world. She can't understand why I would want to go there as it isn't pretty in the standard sense and in her words there was nothing there. Also, it is probably very built up now. Well, actually it isn't because I have done my research. An estate was put in in the 1960s but it's still small population wise. The research has also thrown up some interesting things. One is that the War Office had a big spy centre hidden from everyone literally just up the road. More to the point, the Germans knew it although none of the British population did so talk about irony. That idea of them escaping to somewhere safer, albeit briefly. That was why the plane was there and it then all became more lively which it did. Also, it turns out that Canewdon is spooky in another respect. Google it and you will find that there are a lot of connotations with witchcraft and things that go bump in the night. Its church is possibly quite interesting in that regard. I would only need a few hours there. Possibly get some photos, get a feeling for the area, maybe have a guided boat trip on the estuary (not sure) and see that church. It seems to be a good start what with Holy Island at the end - like book ends. The only problem is that it takes a very long time to get from there to Saxmundham which is the main station for Aldeburgh. About 4 hours unless there is an interesting place to stop between the two. Also, the Great Anglia go anywhere ticket is not for Essex. It's Suffolk, Norfolk and down to Peterborough the latter being the main connecting station north for York. All the rest of the travel is free once the ticket is bought. Canewdon could be done quite separately. It is close enough to be done in a day. Darren, I hope this is helpful.

(I doubt he will be there but it is possible - he's not so well and it all depends on his spontaneity - we did walk a lot and with another chap - the three of us as team - in the last decade)

[Lat-Literal]

Yes - this is going to happen.

I've been in touch with the third man who no longer really gets on with the second man. He's been in touch with the fourth and fifth man who have never got over the fact that I didn't do the one that they all did but it was the only one I missed and with good reasons. Mainly I am reliable. I'm a bit surprised that two now may be coming on board in places, whatever the difficulties for all of us. We have now had a conversation about his early diverticulitus and possible gout. It's been seven years and still they are prepared at least to mull. Must mean something. I'm going on my own come what may and hope that it will be a flexible mix and match. An evening with a forum member or two or three or four would especially be great. Clearly it has now emerged from a nothingness to something more solid. It will be what it will be. In the meantime, I'd be interested in hearing further suggestions on sight seeing etc.

[BBMmk2]

Round my way, there's loads to see, not just me! The south downs etc.

[Lat-Literal]

Round my way, there's loads to see, not just me! The south downs etc.

Thank you so much bbm - and especially because what I know you and your family are going through. You are right - the South Downs are wonderful and to be perfectly honest, I've got all nervous about the idea of pushing it hugely. In some ways it is working and in some ways it is backfiring. The geezers are buying into it and not so. That was always them. Fine - they are who they are. I could do Lewes on a train - I know it well and it might be the best step for a couple of hours - or similar. I saw your earlier post. Yes, yes, I really think so!

(There are issues - one, married with children appears to be the great leader and I feel a bit uncomfortable with it - I'm for equality but inadvertently challenge as the ideas man)

Incidentally, I am so grateful that you have posted twice - I mean that - totally genuine, whatever the twists and turns but that, alas, is life -and thank you so much. Warmest regards!

[kernelbogey]

My experience of the north Norfolk coast is recent and limited, but the vistas along this stretch are of amazing skies - invariably described as 'huge', because the relatively low lying (not 'flat'!) land everywhere lends vistas of a distant horizon. Cumulus, especially in stormy weather, looks magnificent. I cannot offer guidance on transport as I have been here only by car. There is a heritage railway near Sheringham.

The beaches along this coast have very very gentle gradients so that at low tide there are vast expanses of sand, mud and pebbles interspersed with pools of seawater. The tide can come in rapidly and trap the carelessly unwary.

I have recently got to know Norwich a bit. This may be a bit off your intended track, but the railway takes you from London to this regional centre and as the hub for many country bus services, perhaps worth examining as part of your travel planning. It has a huge number of medieval churches, including many that have been deconsecrated and repurposed as arts centres and the like. Perusing Pevsner's magisterial Buildings of Norfolk in the Penguin series could pay dividends for the trip, especially if you can take a copy with you.

I wholly endorse the recommendations of Sebald's Rings of Saturn. Like looking at a part of England through an unexpected crack in an old door.

[kernelbogey]

[...] However, what may not be widely known among posters here is that the invitor sometimes expects some recompense in kind from the invitee. Therefore the invitee is wise to make it clear at the outset that such recompense will not be forthcoming.

Quelle elegance!

[Lat-Literal]

My experience of the north Norfolk coast is recent and limited, but the vistas along this stretch are of amazing skies - invariably described as 'huge', because the relatively low lying (not 'flat'!) land everywhere lends vistas of a distant horizon. Cumulus, especially in stormy weather, looks magnificent. I cannot offer guidance on transport as I have been here only by car. There is a heritage railway near Sheringham.

The beaches along this coast have very very gentle gradients so that at low tide there are vast expanses of sand, mud and pebbles interspersed with pools of seawater. The tide can come in rapidly and trap the carelessly unwary.

I have recently got to know Norwich a bit. This may be a bit off your intended track, but the railway takes you from London to this regional centre and as the hub for many country bus services, perhaps worth examining as part of your travel planning. It has a huge number of medieval churches, including many that have been deconsecrated and repurposed as arts centres and the like. Perusing Pevsner's magisterial Buildings of Norfolk in the Penguin series could pay dividends for the trip, especially if you can take a copy with you.

I wholly endorse the recommendations of Sebald's Rings of Saturn. Like looking at a part of England through an unexpected crack in an old door.

Thank you.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Doesn't the use of 'Dutch' very frequently indicate a degree of disapprobation stemming from the times when we spent a lot of time at war with the Dutch and even worse, they rather too frequently beat us so that they could sail up the Thames more or less with impunity?
Dutch treat = no treat
Dutch courage = that which comes from booze
Dutch auction = one where the price starts extremely high, then drops till the first person puts his hand up; so often a (as below)
Dutch bargain = a poor one
Dutch comfort = "Thank God it's no worse"
Dutch concert = one where everyone sings simultaneously, more or less ad lib
Dutch leaf/ gold/ metal = copper/zinc alloy, a cheap substitute for gold leaf
Dutch lunch/ supper = Dutch treat
Double Dutch = any language unfamiliar to us Brits
Go Dutch = Dutch treat
Talk like a Dutch uncle = administer a rebuke
Dutch uncle = one who issues frank, harsh or severe comments. The reverse of what is normally thought of as avuncular [Wiki].

PS "...or I'm a Dutchman" = the least likely thing in the world (because the least desirable??).