Recording live streams

[Guest]

With some helpful guidance, I bought a licence for the Total Recorder just in time to capture Jazz Line-Up's Storms/Nocturnes concert before it disappeared from the iPlayer. At $17, about £12, this seemed like a very good deal.

Is this ok? I am a UK licence fee payer, so is this just the same as the old rule about taping of the radio, it's permissible for personal use?

[french frank]

There are, I think, sort of greyish areas here, but if you stick to the personal use thing, don't share, it feels okay. Yes, Total Recorder is good.

[cavatina]

If anyone is looking for a free option, Freecorder has always worked well for me.

Is this ok? I am a UK licence fee payer, so is this just the same as the old rule about taping of the radio, it's permissible for personal use? .

I wouldn't worry about it...it's not like you're depriving artists of income. There's nothing to buy and you're not going to sell anything, so what's the problem? If it makes you feel bad, you could always buy some other album from the artists to show your appreciation.

[hackneyvi]

If anyone is looking for a free option, Freecorder has always worked well for me.

I wouldn't worry about it...it's not like you're depriving artists of income. There's nothing to buy and you're not going to sell anything, so what's the problem? If it makes you feel bad, you could always buy some other album from the artists to show your appreciation.

I'm a techno ninny so it never occured to me there might be a free one (despite having changed from Windows to the free download of VLC media player).

My main reason for asking the question was to ensure that it wouldn't cause a problem to the boards by making reference to recorded streams. In fact, the tracks are live versions of releases from their latest studio album, only one of which I've bought so far. I expect to be buying others but some may well be 'instead'. We'll see.

[hackneyvi]

Can anyone advise me, please, if I should specifically choose one of the list below? There is a set-up 'wizard' on the recording software I have downloaded to capture the R3 streams. It offers to let me record in the following ways:

without conversion
in specific uncompressed format
ecord as MP3
in Windows Media Audio (WMA)
as Ogg Vorbis (honestly!)
let me choose format manually

Thanks.

[Stunsworth]

If you're recording from the iPlayer I don't see any reason to use an uncompressed format - since the iPlayer is itself a compressed feed. I'd choose MP3 at 320 kbs. Ogg Vorbis would be another choice, but not all media players support it, hence my personal preference for MP3.

Presumably the 'without conversion' option would record the AAC feed. Again there could be issues with playing the recordings on an MP3 player other than an iPod.

[johnb]

I can't remember what I selected when I initially installed the software, but you can always change it later. However, if you want no loss in audio quality choose to record as PCM 44,100 kbps, 16 bit stereo. This *should* be the same as 'without conversion' but I'm not sure that it is.

You need to start Total Recorder and click on the record button *before* you start to play whatever you are recording.

When you want to end the recording you can click on the stop (the square button) and then choose File/Save to save the file under the filename of your choice.

Once you have your 'wav' file (PCM) you can, of course convert it to whatever format you choose.

If you aren't too bothered about audio quality and if you want to play the music on an portable music player you might prefer to choose mp3, though I have a vague feeling that you might need to install Lame (very easy to do).

[Dave2002]

Can anyone advise me, please, if I should specifically choose one of the list below? There is a set-up 'wizard' on the recording software I have downloaded to capture the R3 streams. It offers to let me record in the following ways:

without conversion
in specific uncompressed format
ecord as MP3
in Windows Media Audio (WMA)
as Ogg Vorbis (honestly!)
let me choose format manually

Thanks.

Depends what you want to do, how much storage you've got, what parameters you can set, and maybe processor and disc drive speed.

Ideally you might want to have an uncompressed format, but you might find that mp3 at 192 Kbps is good enough, and gives good space allocation. Ogg Vorbis would be even better for quality, but might not be any good if you want to play back on some mp3 players. 256 Kbps or 320 Kbps (most comprssed formats) would be even better for quality, but take up more space.

Also, bearing in mind that some streamed audio is already compressed, arguably there is little point in using very high quality and space consuming uncompressed or lightly compressed formats. However there can be transcoding artefacts which may cause problems if you don't match up the recording format with the stream format.

Usually recording at highish bit rates with lossy compression such as mp3, ogg vorbis, or AAC will give acceptable results. Avoid low bit rate encoding - e.g 128kbps mp3 unless you're sure you can tolerate the relatively low audio quality.

[Dave2002]

PS: if you get really picky about quality, try to match up the sampling rate with the source stream sampling rate if known. Sample rate converters can do quite a good job, but some are less good. Whether you'll hear the difference is questionable, but there can be measurable problems. John has suggested 44.1KHz but streams aren't always at this rate.

[johnb]

Dave, your point about sampling rate is well made. However, I suggested 44,100 as that is the sampling rate of used by the aac streams of the BBC radio iplayer (or whatever it is called these days).

[hackneyvi]

Thanks to you all for your replies and advice.

If you're recording from the iPlayer I don't see any reason to use an uncompressed format - since the iPlayer is itself a compressed feed. I'd choose MP3 at 320 kbs. Ogg Vorbis would be another choice, but not all media players support it, hence my personal preference for MP3.

Presumably the 'without conversion' option would record the AAC feed. Again there could be issues with playing the recordings on an MP3 player other than an iPod.

I think I'm about to express myself in terms of breathtaking ignorance.

I am only hearing music on my laptop at present (no iPod and room for the player). However, I'm thinking that recording as an MP3 would mean that the music would be transferable to other devices if I acquired them? But other recorded formats from the list above might not be? Have I got that right?

[hackneyvi]

I can't remember what I selected when I initially installed the software, but you can always change it later. However, if you want no loss in audio quality choose to record as PCM 44,100 kbps, 16 bit stereo. This *should* be the same as 'without conversion' but I'm not sure that it is.

If you aren't too bothered about audio quality and if you want to play the music on an portable music player you might prefer to choose mp3, though I have a vague feeling that you might need to install Lame (very easy to do).

I'm generally quite a fan of 'lo-fi' but for the live jazz and orchestral music I'm wanting to hear, I think I'd be frustrated quite quickly so probably an average optimum would be good and I think the laptop has plenty of space (I have 36Gb in mind and haven't stored much to it that wasn't already installed).

I'm assuming that the sound files could be saved to CDR if need be?

PS: if you get really picky about quality, try to match up the sampling rate with the source stream sampling rate if known. Sample rate converters can do quite a good job, but some are less good. Whether you'll hear the difference is questionable, but there can be measurable problems. John has suggested 44.1KHz but steams aren't always at this rate.

Depends what you want to do, how much storage you've got, what parameters you can set, and maybe processor and disc drive speed.

Ideally you might want to have an uncompressed format, but you might find that mp3 at 192 Kbps is good enough, and gives good space allocation. Ogg Vorbis would be even better for quality, but might not be any good if you want to play back on some mp3 players. 256 Kbps or 320 Kbps (most comprssed formats) would be even better for quality, but take up more space.

Also, bearing in mind that some streamed audio is already compressed, arguably there is little point in using very high quality and space consuming uncompressed or lightly compressed formats. However there can be transcoding artefacts which may cause problems if you don't match up the recording format with the stream format.

Usually recording at highish bit rates with lossy compression such as mp3, ogg vorbis, or AAC will give acceptable results. Avoid low bit rate encoding - e.g 128kbps mp3 unless you're sure you can tolerate the relatively low audio quality.

I can't see myself wanting more than I'm currently able to do which is to make a good quality copy of iPlayer soundtracks (by the standards of someone brought up on cassette recorders with build-in mikes!)

Dave, your point about sampling rate is well made. However, I suggested 44,100 as that is the sampling rate of used by the aac streams of the BBC radio iplayer (or whatever it is called these days).

Can I ask a general question about the MP3, if this is a standard format for sound files? Dave, you mention 'sample rate converters'; is this the equivalent of the automatic recording volume on the old cassette recorder which could be unreliable as I remember, particularly in how they coped, for example, with quiet or 'slient' passages.

[Bryn]

Transcoding from from one lossy codec to another, or recoding back to the same codec always degrades the audio to some extent. If you want to keep the best of what the iPlayer has to offer, I would recommend saving to FLAC. It uses fewer data than WAV while not dumping any used to represent the audio. Total Recorder certainly includes an option to save to FLAC, though as with the lossy codecs it offers, the coding takes place after the recording is stopped. For Radio 3, the iPlayer uses the aac codec at either 192kbps (the on demand facility) or 320kbps (the HD Sound real time option). It would seem particularly daft to me to risk degrading what the HD Sound stream has to offer, which is what recoding it to any lossy codec would necessarily result in.

[hackneyvi]

Transcoding from from one lossy codec to another, or recoding back to the same codec always degrades the audio to some extent. If you want to keep the best of what the iPlayer has to offer, I would recommend saving to FLAC. It uses fewer data than WAV while not dumping any used to represent the audio. Total Recorder certainly includes an option to save to FLAC, though as with the lossy codecs it offers, the coding takes place after the recording is stopped. For Radio 3, the iPlayer uses the aac codec at either 192kbps (the on demand facility) or 320kbps (the HD Sound real time option). It would seem particularly daft to me to risk degrading what the HD Sound stream has to offer, which is what recoding it to any lossy codec would necessarily result in.

I'm going to have to work at this a word at a time!

[Stunsworth]

However, I'm thinking that recording as an MP3 would mean that the music would be transferable to other devices if I acquired them? But other recorded formats from the list above might not be? Have I got that right?

Yes, that's correct. An iPod for example won't play the Ogg Vobis recordings. MP3 would assure maximum compatibility with devices.