Starting a vinyl collection – is it worth it for classical music?

[gmw]

I am in the position of having a quite substantial CD collection and excellent equipment to play it on. Lately though, I have been hankering after a good record deck; several of my friends have them and I enjoy the sound of them - however they do not use them for classical music.

So really I would welcome some opinions from those who may have trodden this path. There does not seem to be a wealth of new recordings available on vinyl although there are plenty of historical recording on the second hand market. Does the particular sonic quality of vinyl lend itself to classical music? Does vinyl have the detail of a good CD recording for orchestral music?

[pastoralguy]

Imvho, no! One of the aspects of the 'renaissance' of vinyl that REALLY annoys me is that much is made of the quality of the new discs. Yes, I've heard a few and they are terrific but why were these record producers not producing a quality product in the 70's and 80's when many of us here were building collections?! I was only too delighted to get rid of my Lps when CDs came along but the few I kept for sentimental reasons sound nothing like the new Lps being produced. Even the full price EMI and DG discs I've held onto sound dismal compared to the new vinyl editions and that's before making comparisons with cd. These relics from the 70's and 80's are flimsy and are made with the cheapest materials imaginable which is probably why I had so many poor experiences with records from that period. And I DID take care of them and mostly played them on my parents good quality Philips system where the diamond stylus was renewed on a regular basis.

By all means, if you wish to invest in these new vinyls then good luck but don't expect older discs to sound as good. Quite why anyone would wish to return to the dark ages is beyond me when cd has so many other things going for it such as the reproduction being as good on the 2,000 playing as it was on the first, the convenience of not turning sides, (think 'Heldenleben'!), being able to program tracks to your requirements, the portability of taking a cd in the car or not having interrupted play while helping the stylus over a damaged groove.

I remember playing my first cd which was the Dutoit 'Daphnes & Chloë' and waiting for the crackle. Well, over 30 years later I'm still waiting! That cd has been twice round the world and has been played in everything from a cd Walkman to a £100,000 system and it still sounds terrific.

Rant over!

[Bryn]

Ah but the (eventual) analogue sound from a vinyl LP is so much 'warmer' (a.k.a. distorted).

[umslopogaas]

Well ... I dont often get offered a subject on this forum that I speak about with any confidence, but this is just in my groove, so to speak.

I have a very large collection of vinyl classical music. A little was bought new back in the vinyl era. Most was bought second hand in the eighties to the noughties, when premier ie bought new, collections were coming on the market. I have bought a few more discs since then, but it is getting increasingly difficult to find anything for which you would lay down good money.

There are three sorts of classical vinyl available to those with money available to buy them.

1. Original issue LPs from the 1950s to the 1980s. Almost always secondhand.
2. New issues made mainly by folk and rock groups who seem to like issuing their latest albums on vinyl as well as other media.
3. Copies of to my knowledge classical LPs, but there may be other non classical stuff too, originally issued in the 1950s to the late sixties. The originals now sell for hundreds of pounds per disc, occasionally thousands. The copies are made in Germany and are so good I cant tell them from the originals, but BEWARE, I dont think they will ever be worth what you paid for them, which will be twenty five quid new per disc.

IF you can find original vinyl classical recordings in EXCELLENT condition, they can be worth a lot. HOWEVER, this is a snake pit and dont go in there innocent without guidance. I would be happy to advise and I offer only one piece of initial guidance. Learn about labels. Only the FIRST label in excellent condition is worth money. For example:

The original Decca 2000 series LPs in good condition are worth hundreds of pounds each, if you doubt me, follow ebay for a few days. The same recordings, reissued on
the Eclipse label (mono) are worth, with one exception, next to nothing. The stereos, issued on Ace of Diamonds are again worth next to nothing, with the exception of Britttens 'The Prince of the Pagodas', which was never otherwise issued, apparently, and for which you may have to pay money. A good copy would be worth it, if you can find one.

As for your question about sonic quality, I can only say that I grew up with vinyl and I like the sound. If you are a fan you say that the sound is warm and mellow; if you are not, and prefer CDs, you say that vinyl is sludge. To me, the sound of good original vinyl on good equipment - and that's another story - is startlingly good. I cannot say if the "vinyl sound" is particularly suited to classical music, but I suspect it is not. I have a few "classic" rock LPs from the early seventies and Cream, The Mothers of Inventions and Canned Heat sound pretty good to me. In fact, given the amount of money that top rock groups were prepared to throw at a recording, compared with what classical musicians could muster, so they should have.

So, in summary, vinyl can be wonderful, BUT you shouldnt jump into that pool uninformed.

[pastoralguy]

I've just looked at Presto.

Pierre Fournier playing the Bach 'cello Suites on 3 Lps is £68!

The CDs are available from Amazon for £3.20.

My CDs were bought in 1988 and have been played, literally, thousands of times. (They used to keep me company on night shifts in the hospital). Let's see how well vinyl sounds after thousands of playing!

Clearly the Lps are aimed at those with more money than sense! (IMHO!)

Perhaps I should add that there are many recordings from the Lp era that are only available in vinyl so if one is desperate to hear, say, Alan Loveday, playing the Beethoven violin sonatas then, alas, that's the only way to do it. It's a source of great irony to me that my favourite recording of all time has never been released on cd! (Igor Oistrakh playing the Tchaikovsky violin concerto under his father, David, with the Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra).

If I won the lottery then I probably would buy an extremely expensive turntable and a cleaning machine to experience these old records but, in the real world, not a chance.

[umslopogaas]

pastoralguy, if that is the original three LP set of the Bach cello suites, in the original gatefold yellow covers, Archiv SAPM 198356 - 8 and it is in good condition and you can get it for sixty eight quid, I'd go for it. I have noted on my own set that two have gone on ebay in the last two years for £365 and £461 respectively. This is a collectors market and collectors are not wholly rational people. I should know, I am one. I dont claim to have much money or sense, but I have studied this market for a long time and I know a bit about it.

You dont need to win the lottery to enter this hobby, but you do need a start up of a couple of thousand quid for the cleaning machinery and then some cash to buy the records.

[Petrushka]

Imvho, no! One of the aspects of the 'renaissance' of vinyl that REALLY annoys me is that much is made of the quality of the new discs. Yes, I've heard a few and they are terrific but why were these record producers not producing a quality product in the 70's and 80's when many of us here were building collections?! I was only too delighted to get rid of my Lps when CDs came along but the few I kept for sentimental reasons sound nothing like the new Lps being produced. Even the full price EMI and DG discs I've held onto sound dismal compared to the new vinyl editions and that's before making comparisons with cd. These relics from the 70's and 80's are flimsy and are made with the cheapest materials imaginable which is probably why I had so many poor experiences with records from that period. And I DID take care of them and mostly played them on my parents good quality Philips system where the diamond stylus was renewed on a regular basis.

By all means, if you wish to invest in these new vinyls then good luck but don't expect older discs to sound as good. Quite why anyone would wish to return to the dark ages is beyond me when cd has so many other things going for it such as the reproduction being as good on the 2,000 playing as it was on the first, the convenience of not turning sides, (think 'Heldenleben'!), being able to program tracks to your requirements, the portability of taking a cd in the car or not having interrupted play while helping the stylus over a damaged groove.

I remember playing my first cd which was the Dutoit 'Daphnes & Chloë' and waiting for the crackle. Well, over 30 years later I'm still waiting! That cd has been twice round the world and has been played in everything from a cd Walkman to a £100,000 system and it still sounds terrific.

Rant over!

Nail hit very firmly on the head here, PG!

[Alain Maréchal]

I am passionate about my vinyl collection, but I can understand pastoralguy's rant. There were a lot of flimsy LPs later on, but those from the late 50s and 60s are usually in heavy vinyl and of high quality. If an LP has scratches and crackles, then either it was poor quality to begin with and should have been replaced, has been played on poor equipment, or has not been properly stored. My DGG SLPMs, for example, were costly, heavy, and still play flawlessly - and much of my collection has crossed the English Channel twice. Some of the SXLs are startlingly vivid.

Having said which, my advice is no!. If you have a collection by all means add to it, from a reputable dealer, but I would not advise starting, unless you definitely want to hear one of the many recorded performances which inexplicably have never been reissued in any other format (e.g. Nielsen/Markevitch). I would also argue that many CD remasterings of fine analogue recordings can sound dull and lacking with vitality compared with the LP. (e.g. Berwald/LSO/Ehrling - a vivid Decca recording reduced to aural wallpaper on CD).

p.s. - can anybody explain the point of issuing a digital recording on LP? Analogue on LP makes sense, but if it is digital to begin with then I suspect that a Digital download would be the best way of acquiring it.

p.p.s. <<being able to program tracks to your requirements>>. I have always trusted the composer to arrange his movements in the order he wanted (with one notable exception).

[pastoralguy]

pastoralguy, if that is the original three LP set of the Bach cello suites, in the original gatefold yellow covers, Archiv SAPM 198356 - 8 and it is in good condition and you can get it for sixty eight quid, I'd go for it. I have noted on my own set that two have gone on ebay in the last two years for £365 and £461 respectively. This is a collectors market and collectors are not wholly rational people. I should know, I am one. I dont claim to have much money or sense, but I have studied this market for a long time and I know a bit about it.

You dont need to win the lottery to enter this hobby, but you do need a start up of a couple of thousand quid for the cleaning machinery and then some cash to buy the records.

Many thanks for your post, umslo. No, these are brand new discs being sold by Presto.

I wish I knew more about vinyl since I do spend a lot of time in charity shops but I've spent most of my life collecting CDs and, like you, have spent WAY TOO much money on rare discs. (Blue-face discs from the early CDs are my weakness!)

I have my late great Aunt Mary's record player, circa 1956, and it still works well despite its age so I haul it out whenever I wish to play vinyl. (Usually 45 rpms from my youth). Talking about my youth, my late Uncle Bob had a super record player he had built during his time in the RAF and l must have spent MANY happy hours watching the turntable go round.

[VodkaDilc]

I am in the position of having a quite substantial CD collection and excellent equipment to play it on. Lately though, I have been hankering after a good record deck; several of my friends have them and I enjoy the sound of them - however they do not use them for classical music.

So really I would welcome some opinions from those who may have trodden this path. There does not seem to be a wealth of new recordings available on vinyl although there are plenty of historical recording on the second hand market. Does the particular sonic quality of vinyl lend itself to classical music? Does vinyl have the detail of a good CD recording for orchestral music?

Yes, yes and yes. Nothing quite compares - not to mention the ritual of putting the record on, reading the record sleeve and having to concentrate for a full 20 minutes or so (difficult if you are under a certain age.) As for cleaning, I can privately pass on the name of a firm which cleans records and returns them in pristine condition. They use one of the £2,000+ machines mentioned above and charge £4 per record, including return delivery. Didn't I read recently that one of the major recording companies (possibly Sony) is now releasing all classical recordings on CD and LP? I think the revival is more than a passing whim.

I am in the process of revisiting my LP collection and I've found some real treasures.

[cloughie]

Imvho, no! One of the aspects of the 'renaissance' of vinyl that REALLY annoys me is that much is made of the quality of the new discs. Yes, I've heard a few and they are terrific but why were these record producers not producing a quality product in the 70's and 80's when many of us here were building collections?! I was only too delighted to get rid of my Lps when CDs came along but the few I kept for sentimental reasons sound nothing like the new Lps being produced. Even the full price EMI and DG discs I've held onto sound dismal compared to the new vinyl editions and that's before making comparisons with cd. These relics from the 70's and 80's are flimsy and are made with the cheapest materials imaginable which is probably why I had so many poor experiences with records from that period. And I DID take care of them and mostly played them on my parents good quality Philips system where the diamond stylus was renewed on a regular basis.

By all means, if you wish to invest in these new vinyls then good luck but don't expect older discs to sound as good. Quite why anyone would wish to return to the dark ages is beyond me when cd has so many other things going for it such as the reproduction being as good on the 2,000 playing as it was on the first, the convenience of not turning sides, (think 'Heldenleben'!), being able to program tracks to your requirements, the portability of taking a cd in the car or not having interrupted play while helping the stylus over a damaged groove.

I remember playing my first cd which was the Dutoit 'Daphnes & Chloë' and waiting for the crackle. Well, over 30 years later I'm still waiting! That cd has been twice round the world and has been played in everything from a cd Walkman to a £100,000 system and it still sounds terrific.

Rant over!

I could almost have written the same response pg. My yardstick for crackle was always the opening of Firebird and why would any sane person wish to return to the inconvenience of vinyl - i will, however, always retain the facility for playing LPs connected to my hifi system but I only use it occasionally.

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't believe vinyl has an intrinsically warmer sound; I don't believe digital has a colder one either. Design choices can make each sound like the stereotype of the other. Most of the sonic character of a given system comes from its amps, cables, tables and speakers, and (that remarkably little-mentioned sound-box of acoustic waves and reflections) the room itself. All of the HIFi infrastructure and its environment, downstream of the source.

So-called "digital artefacts" i.e greyness or harshness, lack of soundstage depth or detail, are a myth born of a short-lived reality: the inadequacy of earlier Dacs and filters within the CD player. Anyone who heard the first or second generation of bitstream players (e.g Rotel 965BX etc, around 1990 et seq) will know that if they had a fault it was being too warm & easygoing in some systems, lacking the rhythmic bite of multibit, whose problem was the cost involved in precise implementation. As I still use a 1997 Krell player as transport, I can tell you that 20x8 sounded very good back then or even earlier - if you could afford a player with the sophisticated transport, processing and power supplies necessary for that precision (I bought mine 2ndhand some years later...).
By around 2001, players like the Arcam CD23 (with its DCS Ringdac) were so perfectly smooth, detailed, natural and dynamic as to lay to rest most of those digital ghosts anyway.

Fast forward a coupla decades and you can have any sound you want from whatever medium really. The R&D in Dacs over the last 5 to 10 years has been fiercely driven by Computer Audio, file replay and portability, resulting in very, very good sound available for little money. The Dac chips are better, jitter vanishingly low, digital design more individual and far better understood. If you can pay a bit more, you've got it made, with filter choices to tailor your digital sources to any given sound balance, warm or analytical, light & fast or weightier & laid-back, from CD, streaming, USB, Optical, whatever.

Of course you can build wonderful systems around vinyl replay; but it'll cost ya - in the turntable/arm/cartidge choices, the anti-vibration platform it resides upon, 180g new issue or sought-after 2ndhand vinyl purchase, cleaning machines, all that "aftermarket" following your system build; often in patience too, as you calibrate your tonearm or prepare the precious plastic for its ritual spin. (I'd rather read the notes to the album myself, or quieten the mind by watching the birds in the garden).
Vinyl today is just another choice - currently a very fashionable one...

****
Alain Maréchal - is this Decca Ehrling/Berwald you mention the Bluebell CD, ABCD037, Berwald 3 & 4? I'm shocked at your comment, as it's one of my favourite Berwald discs - vibrant, fresh, top-to-bottom smooth response, dynamic and 3-D, remarkably modern sound for its 1968 Kingsway provenance - and very recognisably the orchestra of those classic Nielsen and Walton 1sts. That's how it sounds here at least...And I think, if I could get you into this room via transporter beam, you'd probably agree... (and as Beethoven said, maybe the opposite is also true...)

It all comes down to systems, ears, and rooms. Holistic. (and if you get it right, holographic...)

[richardfinegold]

Imvho, no! One of the aspects of the 'renaissance' of vinyl that REALLY annoys me is that much is made of the quality of the new discs. Yes, I've heard a few and they are terrific but why were these record producers not producing a quality product in the 70's and 80's when many of us here were building collections?! I was only too delighted to get rid of my Lps when CDs came along but the few I kept for sentimental reasons sound nothing like the new Lps being produced. Even the full price EMI and DG discs I've held onto sound dismal compared to the new vinyl editions and that's before making comparisons with cd. These relics from the 70's and 80's are flimsy and are made with the cheapest materials imaginable which is probably why I had so many poor experiences with records from that period. And I DID take care of them and mostly played them on my parents good quality Philips system where the diamond stylus was renewed on a regular basis.

By all means, if you wish to invest in these new vinyls then good luck but don't expect older discs to sound as good. Quite why anyone would wish to return to the dark ages is beyond me when cd has so many other things going for it such as the reproduction being as good on the 2,000 playing as it was on the first, the convenience of not turning sides, (think 'Heldenleben'!), being able to program tracks to your requirements, the portability of taking a cd in the car or not having interrupted play while helping the stylus over a damaged groove.

I remember playing my first cd which was the Dutoit 'Daphnes & Chloë' and waiting for the crackle. Well, over 30 years later I'm still waiting! That cd has been twice round the world and has been played in everything from a cd Walkman to a £100,000 system and it still sounds terrific.

Rant over!

I second all of the above. I fell for the vinyl propaganda back around 2000. I bought an entry level tt and started frequenting second hand shops. At the time there were a fair amount of recordings that I had had on lp that had not been digitalized so it made some sense. After a while i began to remember why I hated vinyl so much and thought that CD was a godsend. The surface noise, dust bunnies, disc cleaning rituals, pitch stability, ground loop hums...argh! Digital done correctly blows vinyl away, imo. And now every recording conceivable has been digitalized. Add to that the factor that most lp reissues use digital files as the source and the pointlessness of vinyl really hits home. If I want to tlisten to digital files, why would i want to extract them from a slab of petroleum with a glorified sewing needle? Why not just keep everything in the digital realm?

[teamsaint]

One very good reason to keep, or reintroduce vinyl, is to listen in the way, and through the medium that was intended at recording.
This mostly applies to Jazz and Rock/pop though, and can help the listening experience.
But you need a lot of disposable , or an already comprehensive collection and really good existing system to justify spending the money on this, rather than upgrading, I'd say.

[Alain Maréchal]

Alain Maréchal - is this Decca Ehrling/Berwald you mention the Bluebell CD, ABCD037, Berwald 3 & 4? I'm shocked at your comment, as it's one of my favourite Berwald discs - vibrant, fresh, top-to-bottom smooth response, dynamic and 3-D, remarkably modern sound for its 1968 Kingsway provenance - and very recognisably the orchestra of those classic Nielsen and Walton 1sts. That's how it sounds here at least...And I think, if I could get you into this room via transporter beam, you'd probably agree... (and as Beethoven said, maybe the opposite is also true...)

Jayne, yes it is. I purchased the CD, played it a couple of times, was disappointed, (woolly timpani, cold trumpets, no sense of exhilaration in the coda) played an SXL and have never played the CD again. Which "LSO classic Nielsen" is meant? I only know the Schmidt set, idiomatic but under-rehearsed. As to Nielsen (one of your favourite composers, I believe, as mine) then you should try to find SLPM 139185 - Symphony 4, Markevich conducting the Hofkapellet, probably the most idiomatic Nielsen orchestra, along with the Radio SO. Nielsen was a second violin in the Hofkapellet.

Do CDs have frequencies above 20Khz? LPs do - they may not be heard, but they can be experienced. Perhaps its the upper and lower frequencies that I miss.