Musical confessions

[Pulcinella]

I suppose I could look it up, but I've often wondered what the difference is, if any, between a spire and a steeple.

PS: My Chambers now has me more confused!
It defines a steeple as:
A church or other tower with or without, or including or excluding, a spire; a structure surmounted by a spire; the spire alone.

[Bryn]

I suppose I could look it up, but I've often wondered what the difference is, if any, between a spire and a steeple.

A pointed issue.

[teamsaint]

Its something a steeple aspires to be.

[Pulcinella]

A pointed issue.

Its something a steeple aspires to be.

I might have known that I'd get a pretty sharp response from you two, but to have it before I even had time to post my edit/PS was both impressive and spooky: am I being watched?

[Richard Tarleton]

Seriously, the Sagrada Familia is more or less sui generis. Gaudí a wholly original genius.

Re mine above - as Crocodile Dundee would say, "Call that a thurible? This is a thurible!"

[P. G. Tipps]

Ha! I've seen this in action, during high mass in the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela - spectacular. Smoke and not a few sparks poured forth as it swung from the north to the south chancel and back......

On my last morning (I was in S de C for an OU summer school) I had a wander round and came upon the thing parked in the cathedral library where it was kept when not in use. They know how to put on a show (pity the music was terrible, both when I was there and on this video).

Wow! (or should that be Good Heavens!?) ... the young PGT would have had a right ball swinging that thing!

You're right about that depressing hymn-singing, though ...

[teamsaint]

I might have known that I'd get a pretty sharp response from you two, but to have it before I even had time to post my edit/PS was both impressive and spooky: am I being watched?

Did you find out though ? Wiki says that a steeple is the whole thing including tower and other bits and bobs, and a spire is just the pointy bit on top.
If you want Spooky, I'd suggest this lot......

https://spookymen.com/

well worth catching if you get the chance.

[Richard Tarleton]

You're right about that depressing hymn-singing, though ...

Yes. In 2009 or so my walking companions and I had a day to hang out in Lourdes at the end of a week's walking in the Pyrenees, waiting for the TGV early the next morning - we caught a huge procession of pilgrims, together with at least 4 cardinals, much singing, all dirges. An eye-opening experience, though . I brought a bottle of Lourdes holy water back as a present for my office, as I thought they might benefit from it.

[Ferretfancy]

Wow! (or should that be Good Heavens!?) ... the young PGT would have had a right ball swinging that thing!

You're right about that depressing hymn-singing, though ...

Curious isn't it ? The Catholic Church, at least in its modern form, has the most dreary music you can imagine. I'd rather have happy clappy than that mournful wailing.

Re thurifers --- Two young gays watching a procession. "Love your drag dear, but do you know your handbag's on fire?"

OK, Tasteless and a tad homophobic, but gays can tell gay jokes occasionally.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Catholic Church, at least in its modern form, has the most dreary music you can imagine. I'd rather have happy clappy than that mournful wailing.

The mournful wailing may be depressing, but happy-clappy is a form of extreme torture that never stops.

[P. G. Tipps]

In my most humble of opinions what the modern church needs is a good old dose of some inspiring Bach or Messiaen being blasted out on the organ. That would certainly startle those dreamy, horribly secularised hippy-style happy-clappers in the congregation and hopefully send them packing for good to some distant commune or other ...

Mind you, the trouble these days in a church is finding the organist ... or even the organ.

[gradus]

Sometimes the rejection of a church organ in favour of a sort of rock group is fortuitous, as for instance in the case of our church which was able to replace a clapped out single manual organ, requiring significant expenditure, with a two manual Edwardian instrument of great quality and well-maintained that was no longer being used in the church where it was installed. About £5,000 later we have a splendid instrument in regular use for services and occasional recitals. Perhaps we're fortunate but without too much difficulty, we have found organists and even pianists who have wanted to try their hand (and feet) at organ playing.

[Serial_Apologist]

In my most humble of opinions what the modern church needs is a good old dose of some inspiring Bach or Messiaen being blasted out on the organ. That would certainly startle those dreamy, horribly secularised hippy-style happy-clappers in the congregation and hopefully send them packing for good to some distant commune or other ...

Mind you, the trouble these days in a church is finding the organist ... or even the organ.

The trouble is with the quality of the happy-clappy which, compared with the complex free contrapuntal interweavings and sonorous variety of what would today be classed as "extended vocal techniques" as heard in the early a capella vocal Gospellers to come out of the Deep South, most modern-day "Gospel" is harmonically reductive and rhythmically stultified, and its ubiquitousness in all denominations (going by Sunday worship) would be enough to put me off returning to my "Christian roots", in the unlikely event of that ever happening. I can get far more "spiritually" out of a good jazz session in a club or concert, with or without Gospel influences in the music, than in any church, Pentecostal or otherwise.

[P. G. Tipps]

Sometimes the rejection of a church organ in favour of a sort of rock group is fortuitous, as for instance in the case of our church which was able to replace a clapped out single manual organ, requiring significant expenditure, with a two manual Edwardian instrument of great quality and well-maintained that was no longer being used in the church where it was installed. About £5,000 later we have a splendid instrument in regular use for services and occasional recitals. Perhaps we're fortunate but without too much difficulty, we have found organists and even pianists who have wanted to try their hand (and feet) at organ playing.

Marvellous ... and as for maybe being 'fortunate' the old adage about making one's own luck readily springs to mind here!

[P. G. Tipps]

The trouble is with the quality of the happy-clappy which, compared with the complex free contrapuntal interweavings and sonorous variety of what would today be classed as "extended vocal techniques" as heard in the early a capella vocal Gospellers to come out of the Deep South, most modern-day "Gospel" is harmonically reductive and rhythmically stultified, and its ubiquitousness in all denominations (going by Sunday worship) would be enough to put me off returning to my "Christian roots", in the unlikely event of that ever happening. I can get far more "spiritually" out of a good jazz session in a club or concert, with or without Gospel influences in the music, than in any church, Pentecostal or otherwise.

I can only read your typically thorough and impressive analysis of the 'quality of the happy-clappy' with a distinct sense of personal benightedness, S_A ...

However, despite not being averse to a bit of jazz myself, I'm not at all sure that would be the ideal answer in the case of the Church.

Whatever our personal views about church music I agree wholeheartedly with the agnostic Ralph Vaughan Williams when he once declared .. “It ought no longer to be true anywhere that the most exalted moments of a churchgoer’s week are associated with music that would not be tolerated in any place of secular entertainment.”

For me, that's the point in a nutshell ... better nothing at all than all this patronising happy-clappy and some of those dreary, sleep-inducing hymns!