The Round Ball Game - II

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Scotland were in the union by 1966 so we all could have used the union flag!

That would have worked, but there might have been a problem if Scotland had progressed beyond the group stage, as they could have played against England at some stage.

This does happen in the Commonwealth Games.

[Beef Oven!]

That would have worked, but there might have been a problem if Scotland had progressed beyond the group stage, as they could have played against England at some stage.

This does happen in the Commonwealth Games.

More the merrier!

I'm old-skool - our flag is the flag of the union! Anything else smacks of divide and conquer

[Lat-Literal]

And thousands of flags of the union and no silly St George flags.

I think I was in my thirties when I first noticed the penchance fir the now ubiquitous St George flag. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention .....

Hi Beefo, from memory the shift came in very late 1989/the early 1990s. I would see it as having links with the post "Second Summer of Love" move to casual wear as previously described : musically between Stone Roses/Happy Mondays with a fair bit of "M25 Rave" and Oasis/Blur with perhaps the World in Motion song and video (1990) as the pivot. It was essentially a rebranding in the immediate aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster which at that time was being presented by many as a consequence of hooliganism but the emotions were mixed including considerable sympathy. The first edition of the Taylor Report was published in January 1990 so that sort of underpins the point. One issue in the media's mind was the acquiring by the far right of the Union flag for its own ends during the previous 15 or so years and some connections of it with problems in football so it was out with that flag and in with the St George's flag. Quite how it was achieved if one wants to describe it as that within months I don't know but I am in little doubt that it was heavily influenced from on high.

During the current decade, if not from earlier, the St George's flag has been criticised for associations with the English Defence League. So once again we have the same old difficulties because of deliberate campaigns that suggest fringe associations are more substantial than any broader meaning. When one has been around the block umpteen times, it tends to become tiresome. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that England in the eyes of many is the one country in the world which cannot be permitted to have any sort of flag. Many English people especially on the left stick to a mantra that all English nationalism is cheap and should not be mentioned at the posh dinner table while supporting nationalism anywhere other than their own country. I think the mannered part of downplaying it was historically a mature attempt to permit West Germany as it was then to be accommodated so that it didn't feel awkward about its own history and peace could be maintained. There were also with the Union flag a few sensitivities around Empire. But as I have said in previous posts, the greatest contributors in population percentage terms to the British Empire were Scotland and there were considerable contributions to it too from Wales and even "Anglo-Ireland".

A lot of contrasts could be made. On one level you have the big and the small population wise. England is by far the most populated of the Home Nations. People often have sympathies for the small. But in the main, you don't get Belgium and Luxembourg complaining that they are being overruled by Germany and France in European institutions. Understandably people of ethnic background here are not always overly enamoured by concepts of past British Empire. However, the sensitivities are more acute than in other countries which had an empire - Spain, France etc - and a good part of that might be about differences historically in tolerance of freedom of expression. I often feel that British victory in WW2 carries a peculiar subconscious loathing internationally which is difficult to assess beyond notions of a weird kind of jealousy in those who were not affected so directly by onslaught. Could it really be that wet? Probably. Meanwhile the Russians, of course, tend to claim that victory for themselves which can hardly be criticised when we rarely mention their vital role.

Hooliganism destroyed the Home Nations championship with England v Scotland being banned first. It first occurred before the far right had made gains in England and before there had been a full transition of Scottish nationalism from the far right to the centre left other than on its barely spoken about fringes. So its origins were not overtly political. I think at that time - early 1970s to mid 1980s, I'd have thought that all the Home Nations were for supporting under one flag irrespective of what the Scottish would call the numpty elements on both sides but that flag was damaged by it as much as by, say, the National Front/ BNP. Ironically, all the fists and knives probably carried little in the way of substantive animosity. It is democratic politics and social media which have taken it onto a different level - it may be no coincidence that it is women who are leading that version of fight in all the Home Nations.

[Beef Oven!]

Excellent analysis Lat-Lit - many thanks indeed

I think I concur with all that you say. And the timeline fits me in the sense that you put the turning point as the last moments of the eighties and the beginning of the nineties.

[Lat-Literal]

Excellent analysis Lat-Lit - many thanks indeed

I think I concur with all that you say. And the timeline fits me in the sense that you put the turning point as the last moments of the eighties and the beginning of the nineties.

Good.

Incidentally, it was also 1990 when Billy Bragg as a self-appointed grassroots influence recorded "Jerusalem" on "The Internationale". Blake, he suggested, was not of the right and it would be a useful start to a leftish non Union English nationalism. Something along those lines. His "England Half English" - a building on that idea - didn't arrive until 2002 when it almost seemed to be labouring a point that had to some extent been established. He annoys me now but I always felt that he was best on the miserable stuff - whatever he had to say politically on that CD was overshadowed by the grim, windblown "Some Days I See The Point" which is almost an equal of the great "Tank Park Salute" and "The Space Race Is Over":

Sometimes I See The Point - Dover? Beachy Head? Certainly less England than Our Island:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i8IDSli6Y

Messianic with Jerusalem at the Christian Greenbelt Festival, 2011, with football reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOjg8W71lUA

Decent rendition on the 1990 CD but you have to dig deep to find the name of the woman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXEqFMFFsQo

[johncorrigan]

[/SIZE][/I][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]I don't worry too much about any perceived support for England on panels or commentaries. But I wouldn't much, anyway.
[FONT=OpenSansEmbed] Both the ITV and BBC offer endless, insightful appreciation for other teams moves, goals and achievements, even within our own games.
After all we've been through over so many years, I'd feel a little disappointed if they didn't enjoy the moment in the sun we're having now - especially the former players like Lineker, Wright, Hoddle, Ferdinand etc. Some of whom really suffered those penalty agonies.

[

I'm sure you don't concern yourself, Jayne, but these folks are supposed to bring perspective to games and in most cases they usually do, but it goes out the window when England are playing.(not just in the World Cup, by the way) In fact, I sometimes wonder if there is another team on the park during an England game, we get so little insight - who cares what they're doing, I paraphrase Keown saying in an early group encounter, let's talk about England! Do you know how irritating that is?

Yes, Lineker and co have been through the wringer over the years sort of (try being a Scotland footie fan ), but these men and women are still expected to offer perspective on the game like they mostly do when other teams are playing. That is what, I believe, they are paid for. If they want to enjoy the moment in the sun, fine; they can go and join the crowds on the terraces and let somebody else analyse.
But therein lies the issue. Most Scottish folk I know don't have a problem with the English team doing well, but we do have an issue with the media stuffing it down our throats every bloody minute of the day - oh! sorry! hold on, I just need to cut away because Gareth is showing the boys the best way to iron a waistcoat.

There's a joke that does the rounds up here around this time every four years - 'Did you know that England had once won the World Cup?' 'Really? Well I never! It's a surprise that they've never mentioned it before!'

I know it's not a great joke, but it usually gets a wee laugh and a shrug of the shoulders up here.

[Lat-Literal]

I'm sure you don't concern yourself, Jayne, but these folks are supposed to bring perspective to games and in most cases they usually do, but it goes out the window when England are playing.(not just in the World Cup, by the way) In fact, I sometimes wonder if there is another team on the park during an England game, we get so little insight - who cares what they're doing, I paraphrase Keown saying in an early group encounter, let's talk about England! Do you know how irritating that is?

Yes, Lineker and co have been through the wringer over the years sort of (try being a Scotland footie fan ), but these men and women are still expected to offer perspective on the game like they mostly do when other teams are playing. That is what, I believe, they are paid for. If they want to enjoy the moment in the sun, fine; they can go and join the crowds on the terraces and let somebody else analyse.
But therein lies the issue. Most Scottish folk I know don't have a problem with the English team doing well, but we do have an issue with the media stuffing it down our throats every bloody minute of the day - oh! sorry! hold on, I just need to cut away because Gareth is showing the boys the best way to iron a waistcoat.

There's a joke that does the rounds up here around this time every four years - 'Did you know that England had once won the World Cup?' 'Really? Well I never! It's a surprise that they've never mentioned it before!'

I know it's not a great joke, but it usually gets a wee laugh and a shrug of the shoulders up here.

Perhaps Keown, JC, is over-compensating for his Irish roots : Mum, Galway; Dad, Fermanagh.

His son Callum has opted for the Republic of Ireland.

I know the Commonwealth Games are not the same as the Olympics by I for one took in the themes on television of Glasgow being a great place. I have only ever passed through it once and that was in 1973 on the way to all sorts of wonderful places elsewhere in Scotland. That along with it having been the City of Culture has altered my mind on the place. To be frank, I think we must have driven through a dodgy part initially to Arrochar because there were a lot of bars on the windows of tenements. Anyhow, I am also very much taken with Celtic Connections but one issue there is that we do not get enough of that in England at what is generally a miserable month in the year. In contrast to 2014, I found the London Olympics mainly a pain in the neck. Having been marginally involved in certain prior arrangements - by chance, I was privileged to be at one meeting with high profile police - I didn't like the money that was being spent on it when I was being made redundant and it wasn't "my" London. I wasn't against - it was good luck to the young folk - but didn't feel involved.

A lot of Scottish people are great; Scottish culture is great; Scottish pride is great; and Scottish countryside is great. But I don't like the political nationalism. It looks to me like hype and I learnt as long ago as 1982 that there is no real political theory in any nationalism, however it is dressed. Perhaps if I was Scottish I would feel differently but I am not and I don't.

Places visited: Arrochar/Loch Long - avoided torpedo before breakfast, Glencoe - fell in the water in blazing heat, Fort William/Glen Nevis - walked the latter, Inverness/Culloden/Nairn Highland Games - caber lessons from Donald E Campbell, porridge experimentation the proper way, Ullapool, Rogie Falls when there was still a rope bridge, Pitlochry/Salmon leap. Ta.

Incidentally, irrespective of the greatness of Postcard records and Linn records and all the rest, this - and I know you are not a huge fan of Capercaillie - is one of my favourite vocal tracks of all time, classical, pop, folk or otherwise. Karen Matheson at her absolute peak and although it has a post eighties production the heart in it is unquestionable and so moving:

Capercaillie - Aodann Srath Bhain - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxpG5jD2QP0

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm sure you don't concern yourself, Jayne, but these folks are supposed to bring perspective to games and in most cases they usually do, but it goes out the window when England are playing.(not just in the World Cup, by the way) In fact, I sometimes wonder if there is another team on the park during an England game, we get so little insight - who cares what they're doing, I paraphrase Keown saying in an early group encounter, let's talk about England! Do you know how irritating that is?

Yes, Lineker and co have been through the wringer over the years sort of (try being a Scotland footie fan ), but these men and women are still expected to offer perspective on the game like they mostly do when other teams are playing. That is what, I believe, they are paid for. If they want to enjoy the moment in the sun, fine; they can go and join the crowds on the terraces and let somebody else analyse.
But therein lies the issue. Most Scottish folk I know don't have a problem with the English team doing well, but we do have an issue with the media stuffing it down our throats every bloody minute of the day - oh! sorry! hold on, I just need to cut away because Gareth is showing the boys the best way to iron a waistcoat.

There's a joke that does the rounds up here around this time every four years - 'Did you know that England had once won the World Cup?' 'Really? Well I never! It's a surprise that they've never mentioned it before!'

I know it's not a great joke, but it usually gets a wee laugh and a shrug of the shoulders up here.

Are you sure you don't have a problem with England doing well, after posting a comment like this?

You know, 1966-and-all-that has usually been mentioned in a mood of hurt, despair at each World Cup team's quarter-final, penalty shoot-out exit (or failure to qualify at all in '74, '78 and '94); basking in old glory? Not so much ....

I'm always a bit baffled when someone says that the media is forcing anything upon them every minute of the day, because... you can just switch off - either literally or by say, muting comment or newsclips between the action you really want to watch. At halftime, get some air or make a coffee...
And I do find your description of the biased commentary baffling, as I've watched every England game live and in highlights later. There has been frequent commentary from panels, commentators and analyst-sidekicks about the oppositions' tactics and play; hard to avoid given the approach of Tunisia or Panama in their attempts to "mark" Harry Kane etc. (not to mention Columbia!) but appreciative too of the Belgian skills and their goal, and carefully critical (given the context) of England's 2nd-XI lacklustre performance (or the deliberation of it) in that game. And so on.
And of course, many people love to get angry watching things they don't like..oh, the joys of confirmation bias... (I do it myself with political discussions involving hard-brexiters...)

It really is in the ear and eye of the beholder, isn't it? I'm charmed by Mr. Southgate's sartorial slickness, and by reports of the increased sales of waistcoats... I read every World Cup comment I can find in the Guardian, Observer, anywhere online...usually impatient of half-time analysis or preambles to sports events, I can't get enough of them now, here, in the middle of a wonderful World Cup Summer.
We smiling English Cats are enjoying our cream. We had a long wait for such rare pleasure.

But for those who promote the merchandise of "Anyone but England"... it probably will taste a little sour, and there'll seem to be far too much of it..

[LMcD]

I'm sure you don't concern yourself, Jayne, but these folks are supposed to bring perspective to games and in most cases they usually do, but it goes out the window when England are playing.(not just in the World Cup, by the way) In fact, I sometimes wonder if there is another team on the park during an England game, we get so little insight - who cares what they're doing, I paraphrase Keown saying in an early group encounter, let's talk about England! Do you know how irritating that is?

Yes, Lineker and co have been through the wringer over the years sort of (try being a Scotland footie fan ), but these men and women are still expected to offer perspective on the game like they mostly do when other teams are playing. That is what, I believe, they are paid for. If they want to enjoy the moment in the sun, fine; they can go and join the crowds on the terraces and let somebody else analyse.
But therein lies the issue. Most Scottish folk I know don't have a problem with the English team doing well, but we do have an issue with the media stuffing it down our throats every bloody minute of the day - oh! sorry! hold on, I just need to cut away because Gareth is showing the boys the best way to iron a waistcoat.

There's a joke that does the rounds up here around this time every four years - 'Did you know that England had once won the World Cup?' 'Really? Well I never! It's a surprise that they've never mentioned it before!'

I know it's not a great joke, but it usually gets a wee laugh and a shrug of the shoulders up here.

You're spot on as far as I'm concerned. Soccer commentators could learn a lot by listening to their Rugby Union and Lawn Tennis colleagues - especially the woefully underrated Andrew Cotter. John McEnroe is IMHO the summarizer par excellence, and he consistently refused to 'big up' Kyle Edmund's chances, correctly predicting that he would take 1 set, and no more, off Djokovic.
To be fair, our soccer commentators don't go as far as the post-Falklands Argentinian commentator who consistently referred, in a game against England played in - I think Buenos Aires - to 'Argentina' and 'the other team'.
Broadcasters also get very excited about ratings: 'England-Sweden game watched by 20 million'. The average - for viewing on TV - was actually 15.8 million, with another 4 million or so tuning in for the last few minutes. But let's not allow the statistics to get in the way of a good headline.
Perhaps David Davis could join the BBC's flag-waving World cup pundits.....

[teamsaint]

Some football commentators and pundits are good, others are less good.
I wonder how impartial coverage of Henman was, or Andy Murray is, or has been, on the BBC ?

Does anybody really talk about 1966 much these days, other than in passing, or with a bit of damp-eyed nostalgia ? I'm 56, been watching football for nearly 50 years, and I don't remember 1966 at all. Perhaps those comments in the media just wash over English heads, but still resonate negatively elsewhere.
An awful lot of the people watching today weren't even born when England last got even to the semis. For today's 20 and 30 and somethings, 1966 is about as relevant as sports events from the 1930's are to me. Deep history.

If JCs comments are representative of feelings in Scotland, ( and no reason tho think they aren't) perhaps BBC Scotland could have a studio commentator as a red button option for BBC Scotland channel. 5Live has had studio commentators for some WC games, so I doubt it is expensive or difficult.

[LMcD]

Andy Murray recently took exception to John McEnroe describing him as a 'distant fourth'. JM has consistently resisted invitations, some from fellow pundits and commentators, to raise people's hopes with regard to Andy's comeback and Kyle's prospects in the immediate future. Tim Henman joined JM in declining to get over-optimistic about Kyle's prospects against Djokovic, unequivocally predicting that he wouldn't beat him. No signs of pro-British bias there!
I can't honestly name more than one Soccer commentator - the ineffable John Motson - who has been, or is, equal in terms of objective professionalism to the late Dan Maskell, Richie Benaud and Bill McLaren. Among current commentators, I rate Andrew Cotter, Eddie Butler and Nick Mullins. Among summarizers, the World Cup team could also learn from Brian Moore, Boris Becker and Jeremy Guscott. Lawn Tennis and Rugby Union just seem to attract less hysterical and less gung-ho commentators and pundits.

[teamsaint]

Andy Murray recently took exception to John McEnroe describing him as a 'distant fourth'. JM has consistently resisted invitations, some from fellow pundits and commentators, to raise people's hopes with regard to Andy's comeback and Kyle's prospects in the immediate future. Tim Henman joined JM in declining to get over-optimistic about Kyle's prospects against Djokovic, unequivocally predicting that he wouldn't beat him. No signs of pro-British bias there!
I can't honestly name more than one Soccer commentator - the ineffable John Motson - who has been, or is, equal in terms of objective professionalism to the late Dan Maskell, Richie Benaud and Bill McLaren. Among current commentators, I rate Andrew Cotter, Eddie Butler and Nick Mullins. Among summarizers, the World Cup team could also learn from Brian Moore, Boris Becker and Jeremy Guscott. Lawn Tennis and Rugby Union just seem to attract less hysterical and less gung-ho commentators and pundits.

Are you seriously suggesting there was no pro British ( English) bias when Henman was at his Wimbledon peak ?

Plenty of non "hysterical" football commentators out there. And plenty of decent pundits. Who cares about over excitement anyway ?

You're supposed to get excited, get it out of your system, then calm down. That's the point. I don't go to the footy for tranquility, though god knows we got it under the last Southampton manager. It was awful.
And I wouldn't want Scottish or Welsh commentators being even handed if their team was going all the way. That would be rather disappointing.

[BBMmk2]

Thought it was great of Harry Kane going to talk to the fans.

[eighthobstruction]

Are you seriously suggesting there was no pro British ( English) bias when Henman was at his Wimbledon peak ?

Plenty of non "hysterical" football commentators out there. And plenty of decent pundits. Who cares about over excitement anyway ?

You're supposed to get excited, get it out of your system, then calm down. That's the point. I don't go to the footy for tranquility, though god knows we got it under the last Southampton manager. It was awful.
And I wouldn't want Scottish or Welsh commentators being even handed if their team was going all the way. That would be rather disappointing.

....aye it's the craic isn't it....a poke of fun....

[burning dog]

Rugby was at one time mostly between British teams who all received the BBC coverage, the others were almost entirely with English speaking Commonwealth countries.

Cricket - the BBC broadcast the Aussie/New Zealand radio commentary and vice versa, there was always a guest commentator from the "other side". Brian Johnston was told when he started not to refer to England as "we". In earlier days we had the Aussie TV highlights programme in the UK, I remember Bobby Simpson introducing it. I presume the Aussies got the BBC highlights.
There was an awareness that many of the audience would not be rooting for the home team.

This has rarely been the case with football.I can't remember the situation when we played Scotland and Wales. I suspect there were prominent Scottish and Welsh commentators and pundits featured.

Tennis may be different as it's very much about individuals and I can't remember as a child THAT much Nationalism even when Roger Taylor played well. There WAS in the Davis Cup when Cox and Stilwell had a good run. As a young adult the passions ran high between McEnroe and Borg fans and not because of any Swedish or American bias.