The Round Ball Game - II

[Stanfordian]

Croatian defender Lovren has said that his team have nothing to lose. Err, only the game!

[eighthobstruction]

....big hopes after the entire defence and several forwards completely failed to get off the ground during the making of Russias second goal....Henderson will no doubt know all Lovrens foibles....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

KD's face, suitably grinning, is on the front of BBC Music Magazine featuring the BBC Proms. I nearly dropped it when I saw it. Clearly they value presenters over composers and musicians.

Thanks for the warning. I'll wear dark sunglasses when I pick my copy up from the newsagent.

[Lat-Literal]

Film footage of '66. The fans in the main are 25-65. Average age perhaps 30s if not slightly older. Few early 20s. No teenagers. No children. Flat caps, suits and ties, a fair few bald or with grey hair. A lot wearing glasses. More women than might have been anticipated though the numbers are not huge. Elsewhere - footage which shows the crowds who turned out to see the cup being held aloft - there is a greater gender mix with a fair number of women in headscarves and if anything the people are even older. It looks like a rerunning of VE Day - a confirmation of a nation's role in post war freedom rather than tribal or the release of energy from being the persistent underdog. There is no money for additional television, kits or drink and in terms of young people match tickets and travel even though such things were dirt cheap compared with now. Decades of real austerity were counterbalanced by a belief that things could only get substantially better. In a sense, that was what had been believed 21 years earlier but that had failed to come to fruition so the '66 victory was a rebooting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pZQAggQgMo

It would be churlish to dwell on the few "moments" yesterday - the clambering over roofs of vehicles and some distinctly unsavoury songs towards Swedish fans. Having checked the footage, worse has occurred in recent times among the toffs on Ladies Day at Ascot and YT shows that vehicles were also clambered over at Pride, not that it will be mentioned on the news. I am not convinced that alcohol in most cases is the substance of note. Mostly where it is imbibed there are no social problems. Rather it almost certainly takes the blame for being combined with something else that is not officially legal. A plus point has been the increasing numbers involved in singing and dancing. It is undoubtedly true that the natural ability to sing and to dance or to whistle and to laugh in a mildly reactive way has largely been lost to daily routines. A reason is needed and as we head towards Wednesday a reason has been provided. It combines with the sort of copyism from international experience that introduced, among other things, the garden barbecue and in a more backwards step, tattoos.

[Lat-Literal]

Some of what you say is certainly correct, ts. However sorry to keep going on about it, but I wish I could say the same about the commentator/ pundit who have, once again, been frankly appallingly one-sided - had to watch with the sound on mute eventually. I mean it's the BBC not the EBC, is it not? For the Croatia v England game I think BBC Scotland should put their own commentators in there, I reckon.

I have been mulling over this one and can see no easy solutions. The presumed "we" from Danny Murphy which early on caused especial irritation was no more, I feel, than indicative of his limitations as a commentator. Lineker makes a point of saying "England" and is in the main fair, albeit talking from the perspective of an Englishman and to an audience which is mainly English. That team - him and Shearer, Klinsmann and Ferdinand - it works for me as I have said before and I have no problems with Keown so I was quite pleased with the coverage. What did annoy me was Mowbray's and especially Logan's obsessive references to Delph's third child. Good luck to him but I really thought it was crass beyond belief - "should her second name be Samara?" - and frankly I didn't want to know about it.

It might well be the case that separate BBC coverage would have been appropriate in this tournament for a combination of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I don't quite see the justification for a different broadcast in each and cost wise it would be prohibitive. If Scotland had been the only home nation involved, then yes, I think it could be one for Scotland and one for England, Wales and N Ireland combined. If two home nations nations qualified and let us say that those nations were Scotland and England - quite possible when the number increases to 48 - then it gets trickier. Either you have one broadcast for those two and another for the other two or you have to have one for each of the qualifying teams and one for the other two. That is three lots and I am not sure that it could easily be justified.

From an English perspective, it is hard now to think back to the way things were when nations other than England qualified. People talk about Montford and Macpherson in 1978. I don't know to what extent that was regionalised. Certainly I recall Macpherson. I was still quite young then and I think I mildly hoped that Scotland would do well. That must have been encouraged to an extent by the nature of the television output although for some reason I tend to associate that competition in my mind with ITV rather than the BBC. The San Jose tune perhaps. In more recent times, I was quite strongly for Wales - the rivalry is historically less acute - but it tailed off as they progressed and I can't recall quite why but I believe it was because of an increasing anti-English sentiment among some Welsh supporters.

Between these two points time wise, giving support to Northern Ireland has always been easier, perhaps because it represents a joining of the opposites in wider life. One sort of hopes when they do well it contributes to the ongoing peace process. The Rep of Ireland has always been easier for me still, being politically (just) one step removed. I probably in the past had a Rep of Ireland shirt just as some English supporters also have a shirt of Brazil.

[LMcD]

I see that the final is live on BBC and ITV. The BBC will probably, as usual, attract about 80% of the viewers - why do ITV bother?

[Zucchini]

Thanks for the warning. I'll wear dark sunglasses when I pick my copy up from the newsagent.

It'll be on the top shelf this month …


(Ps change of topic - BBC News reports that 4 boys have so far been rescued from the Thai cave. V brave people working there)

[jayne lee wilson]

When I remember this -

"“We are the best in the world! We are the best in the world! We have beaten England 2-1 in football!! It is completely unbelievable! We have beaten England! England, birthplace of giants.“Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana – we have beaten them all. We have beaten them all!
“Maggie Thatcher can you hear me? Maggie Thatcher, I have a message for you in the middle of the election campaign. I have a message for you: We have knocked England out of the football World Cup.
“Maggie Thatcher, as they say in your language in the boxing bars around Madison Square Garden in New York: Your boys took a hell of a beating! Your boys took a hell of a beating!”"
(Norway 2 England 1, 1981)
Or the Brazilian commentators roaring out Goooooaaaall"...

I don't worry too much about any perceived support for England on panels or commentaries. But I wouldn't much, anyway.
Both the ITV and BBC offer endless, insightful appreciation for other teams moves, goals and achievements, even within our own games. (And thank god, at last, women players in the studio - Eni Aluko and Alex Scott).
After all we've been through over so many years, I'd feel a little disappointed if they didn't enjoy the moment in the sun we're having now - especially the former players like Lineker, Wright, Hoddle, Ferdinand etc. Some of whom really suffered those penalty agonies.
(Favourites on panels? Gary Neville and Slaven Bilic, Danny Murphy and Alex Scott. In a World Cup brimming over with talking points, I've lapped up their discussions, I love them, and as I said, Hoddle as best commentary-sidekick).
***
I do feel sorry for Russia and their supporters today, the so-close hope, the agony, the tears - how many will be reliving that almost-saved penalty...Oh my, oh my...

***
Wow! Two Spitfires and a Lancaster just circled above our neighbourhood, two or three times, with that wonderful, throaty guttural roar lost even to Formula One cars nowadays.
Wow!
Now that's what I call a celebration!

[Lat-Literal]

When I remember this -

"“We are the best in the world! We are the best in the world! We have beaten England 2-1 in football!! It is completely unbelievable! We have beaten England! England, birthplace of giants.“Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana – we have beaten them all. We have beaten them all!
“Maggie Thatcher can you hear me? Maggie Thatcher, I have a message for you in the middle of the election campaign. I have a message for you: We have knocked England out of the football World Cup.
“Maggie Thatcher, as they say in your language in the boxing bars around Madison Square Garden in New York: Your boys took a hell of a beating! Your boys took a hell of a beating!”"
(Norway 2 England 1, 1981)
Or the Brazilian commentators roaring out Goooooaaaall"...

I don't worry too much about any perceived support for England on panels or commentaries. But I wouldn't much, anyway.
Both the ITV and BBC offer endless, insightful appreciation for other teams moves, goals and achievements, even within our own games. (And thank god, at last, women players in the studio - Eni Aluko and Alex Scott).
After all we've been through over so many years, I'd feel a little disappointed if they didn't enjoy the moment in the sun we're having now - especially the former players like Lineker, Wright, Hoddle, Ferdinand etc. Some of whom really suffered those penalty agonies.
(Favourites on panels? Gary Neville and Slaven Bilic, Danny Murphy and Alex Scott. In a World Cup brimming over with talking points, I've lapped up their discussions, I love them, and as I said, Hoddle as best commentary-sidekick).
***
I do feel sorry for Russia and their supporters today, the so-close hope, the agony, the tears - how many will be reliving that almost-saved penalty...Oh my, oh my...

***
Wow! Two Spitfires and a Lancaster just circled above our neighbourhood, two or three times, with that wonderful, throaty guttural roar lost even to Formula One cars nowadays.
Wow!
Now that's what I call a celebration!

Enjoyed your post. It is interesting to think how England as a football team not to mention as a nation was still perceived in 1981, some 15 years after '66 and twice without qualifying. There is also a point there in that commentary about national bias - it's more blatant in many places : think of Brazil etc - but without the complexities of the structures here. One thing that is coming across from your contributions and those of several others is the sheer difference in preferences on pundits and commentators. I am beginning to think that of itself is somewhat regional. That I like Ferdinand and Shearer seems to be about the people themselves but I do also have preferences for Sarf London and the North East, among other places. So you can't please everyone all the time. We have even disagreed on the ones from oversees. As I have said, Bilic is so-so for me but I think Klinsmann has been a broadcasting joy.

Interesting reference here to 30 years - it predates Three Lions by six years:

James - Come Home - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWd9mqC80BU

[Pulcinella]

Thanks for the warning. I'll wear dark sunglasses when I pick my copy up from the newsagent.

You must have averted your eyes when you bought it, Alpie, as it's the issue with the listings that suggested that the regular Building a Library was continuing during the Proms.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oops!

[Beef Oven!]

Film footage of '66. The fans in the main are 25-65. Average age perhaps 30s if not slightly older. Few early 20s. No teenagers. No children. Flat caps, suits and ties, a fair few bald or with grey hair. A lot wearing glasses. More women than might have been anticipated though the numbers are not huge. Elsewhere - footage which shows the crowds who turned out to see the cup being held aloft - there is a greater gender mix with a fair number of women in headscarves and if anything the people are even older. It looks like a rerunning of VE Day - a confirmation of a nation's role in post war freedom rather than tribal or the release of energy from being the persistent underdog. There is no money for additional television, kits or drink and in terms of young people match tickets and travel even though such things were dirt cheap compared with now. Decades of real austerity were counterbalanced by a belief that things could only get substantially better. In a sense, that was what had been believed 21 years earlier but that had failed to come to fruition so the '66 victory was a rebooting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pZQAggQgMo

It would be churlish to dwell on the few "moments" yesterday - the clambering over roofs of vehicles and some distinctly unsavoury songs towards Swedish fans. Having checked the footage, worse has occurred in recent times among the toffs on Ladies Day at Ascot and YT shows that vehicles were also clambered over at Pride, not that it will be mentioned on the news. I am not convinced that alcohol in most cases is the substance of note. Mostly where it is imbibed there are no social problems. Rather it almost certainly takes the blame for being combined with something else that is not officially legal. A plus point has been the increasing numbers involved in singing and dancing. It is undoubtedly true that the natural ability to sing and to dance or to whistle and to laugh in a mildly reactive way has largely been lost to daily routines. A reason is needed and as we head towards Wednesday a reason has been provided. It combines with the sort of copyism from international experience that introduced, among other things, the garden barbecue and in a more backwards step, tattoos.

And thousands of flags of the union and no silly St George flags.

I think I was in my thirties when I first noticed the penchance fir the now ubiquitous St George flag. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention .....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And thousands of flags of the union and no silly St George flags.

I think I was in my thirties when I first noticed the penchance fir the now ubiquitous St George flag. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention .....

It was a bit tactless to use the Union Flag, as Scotland were there in the group stage in 1966. There were a few St George's flags in 1966. The commentators mentioned them at the time.

[Beef Oven!]

It was a bit tactless to use the Union Flag, as Scotland were there in the group stage in 1966. There were a few St George's flags in 1966. The commentators mentioned them at the time.

I didn't notice the St George flags, but then I was only six years old!

Tactless? Scotland were in the union by 1966 so we all could have used the union flag!

[teamsaint]

It was a bit tactless to use the Union Flag, as Scotland were there in the group stage in 1966. There were a few St George's flags in 1966. The commentators mentioned them at the time.

Scotland didnt qualify, but the mostly undiscussed prevalence of the Union flag at England games back then is interesting.