The Round Ball Game - II

[johncorrigan]

Really! Scotland managed to prevent England from scoring any goals so I wonder how that’s a poor result.

Scotland turned up against England, pg, but I thought we might at last get out of the group stage. Scotland had plenty chances in all three games...the team managed one goal and one point. There's some top players in there but there is a great need for a striker. We've got Denmark in the group for the World Cup...need to get off to a good start.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The thing that warmed me the most was the camaraderie and understanding between the two goalkeepers as they were about to face the penalty shootout.

[eighthobstruction]

....well lets hope the Italian fans and family groups got home safely....though I fear the worst....I turned off and watched T de France [heaven] after Italy scored....and saw no more....

....After Italians scored , I couldn't endure what was obviously going to happen; inevitable....(the England defence looking hysterical, Pickford for all his good saves a seat of frenzy)....Without that 2 minute goal which stirred the hornets nest (obviously retorical statement - of course we wanted to score) how might it have played out. The game was immediately destablised, sent into chaos (what's with Southgates inability to celebrate the goal - he usually does - even cool Mancini does) all the training ground stuff went into the bin, because there is no way Eng could have simulated the direct power of Chiesa +++ on training ground....Southgate has kidded himself into thinking he's the thinking manager hence oddities in 2nd half choices....Chilwell not used at all ppwwwsh....was TRippier injured do you know??

Once England scored I thougfht (what I saw) it changed into the equivalent of 3rd Round FA Cup: Man City v a 2nd Division team fighting to ndefend against unassailable odds....

But then that's me....I did see some positives during tournament....but Southgate misread the script yesterday....too many winger types in squad....as with right side Trippier + Walker................how about Chiwell + Shaw for left side in second half..........Saka ??? (love him) but not last night

[jayne lee wilson]

Too down today to say much, as the clouds hang over us and the rains descend...
Just finished off the champagne from Sunday breakfast. Misery.

But: penalties.
Rashford's record for United is: 15 scored, 2 missed. I would have always wanted him to take one (even coming on late for that sole purpose), but he should have been on much earlier, with Grealish, probably for the Bonucci-Chiellini neutralised Kane. They are more vulnerable with pace to turn them around (as Spain showed). Happy to face any incoming. Easy for them.

Sancho and Saka should probably not have taken them, but I can't find anything about those decisions, or who refused to take them among senior players....could do with knowing more about that (**). I'd be surprised if Sterling refused, but his recent penalty record in all competitions is 2 scored, 3 missed.
(But.... some of the greatest strikers have missed crucial penalties, in big games: Baggio, Van Basten, Shevchenko....).

Tactics: spot-on in the first half in which we played very well, but the warning signs at the end of it..... Southgate should have made more creative subs sooner, yes, but he knew well that Italy were a far better team than Germany or Denmark - and is well aware of his own squad's limitations.

But the falling back in the 2ndhalf was not, or not only, the manager's problem. And to move to a more creative, attacking shape was always a much greater risk against Italy. There seem no consolations right now, but Italy are a very hard team to beat, with a long and honoured International record; streetwise footballing nous; intense pride and passion. A remarkable unbeaten recent record, and a current fast and adaptable playing style, with so many experienced players, that is very difficult to counteract, once the pattern of play goes against you. Earlier subs, leaving us more open, could have easily resulted in a 1-2 or 1-3 defeat.

England currently have a very strong, settled, and tactically flexible 3-5 player defence. Possibly the best, or at least most important, part of the squad. That is why Southgate plays as he does, and why his choices will have appeared too cautious in the final (The absent Trent Alexander-Arnold could have made a significant difference). But - it was Italy, and the immaculately-attired Roberto Mancini's Italy. Look at it in context.

****
(**)Penalties....It does appear to have been Southgate's choices...he takes the responsibility, as we'd expect...admirable man.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-shaw-england-penalty-21029903

Chiellini on Saka: still a red card for me, by the current laws: serious foul play/denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

[eighthobstruction]

....the utterly distainful inhuman unsportsmanlike roughing of Saka was disgusting ....in fact a human rights violation....nasty - ugly....

[Serial_Apologist]

....the utterly distainful inhuman unsportsmanlike roughing of Saka was disgusting ....in fact a human rights violation....nasty - ugly....

"Benvenuto Chiellini"? Definitely NOT.

[Nick Armstrong]

....the utterly distainful inhuman unsportsmanlike roughing of Saka was disgusting ....in fact a human rights violation....nasty - ugly....

Too many disgusting reactions to count (I take it you mean racist reaction by English people, to Saka as well as the other unlucky penalty takers). Nauseating “fans” / country, ours, too often…

[Ein Heldenleben]

Always thought after extra time tournaments should be decided on yellow cards . On that score it’s England 6 Italy 12 . They have the highest foul tally by far (93 ) and do not deserve the trophy . Do they care ? No. They are a massive blemish on the beautiful game.

[Stanfordian]

....the utterly distainful inhuman unsportsmanlike roughing of Saka was disgusting ....in fact a human rights violation....nasty - ugly....

Italy gave England enough chances during the game to capitalise but they didn't. For me, on strength and experience Italy was a team of men against an England team with several boys.

Harry Kane did well but didn't look properly fit - will he ever be, I'm unsure. He seems to be carrying an injury. Ideally I would have liked Calvert‑Lewin to have replaced him for the last third of each game.
Henderson didn't look properly fit either. Doesn't get around the field the same anymore. He's quickly become a shadow of the player he once was.
Sterling was in and out of games. Played very well in short bursts. Should have contributed far more overall.
Mount seemed out of sorts and sadly was unable to reproduce his marvellous club form. I expected far more from this very fine player.
Saka, after a fine first game, seemed totally overawed and lightweight. The tough and uncompromising opposition found it easy to nullify him.
Pickford, who can't seem to catch anything, was still a bag of nerves but slightly less so than usual. Had a decent tournament. Please can we find a taller keeper. The Italian giant in goal was marvellous and won them the game.
Rashford, what little we saw of him, his head seemed elsewhere. He's been badly out of form for club and now country too.
Declan Rice was OK for me but not as effective as many pundits seem to think. I think Phillips is twice the player.
Kalvin Phillips was my man of the team in every game. Simply outstanding! I wish England had more like him. Please, please sign him Man Utd.
Harry Maguire was also superb throughout. I can't believe he is not team captain.
Luke Shaw was outstanding hardly put a foot wrong all tournament.
John Stones had a fine tournament was combative, consistent and good on the ball.
Kyle Walker seemed fully engaged and played out of his skin. Consistent and resilient.
Kieran Trippier surprised me and played better than I expected.
Tyrone Mings when he did play was extremely effective.
Jack Grealish should have played in every game. Not playing him was a big, big mistake by Southgate. When Grealish did play he was outstanding.

Yes, I agree. Chiellini on Saka definitely a red card but would it have made any difference.

[LHC]

Too down today to say much, as the clouds hang over us and the rains descend...
Just finished off the champagne from Sunday breakfast. Misery.

But: penalties.
Rashford's record for United is: 15 scored, 2 missed. I would have always wanted him to take one (even coming on late for that sole purpose), but he should have been on much earlier, with Grealish, probably for the Bonucci-Chiellini neutralised Kane. They are more vulnerable with pace to turn them around (as Spain showed). Happy to face any incoming. Easy for them.

Sancho and Saka should probably not have taken them, but I can't find anything about those decisions, or who refused to take them among senior players....could do with knowing more about that (**). I'd be surprised if Sterling refused, but his recent penalty record in all competitions is 2 scored, 3 missed.
(But.... some of the greatest strikers have missed crucial penalties, in big games: Baggio, Van Basten, Shevchenko....).

Tactics: spot-on in the first half in which we played very well, but the warning signs at the end of it..... Southgate should have made more creative subs sooner, yes, but he knew well that Italy were a far better team than Germany or Denmark - and is well aware of his own squad's limitations.

But the falling back in the 2ndhalf was not, or not only, the manager's problem. And to move to a more creative, attacking shape was always a much greater risk against Italy. There seem no consolations right now, but Italy are a very hard team to beat, with a long and honoured International record; streetwise footballing nous; intense pride and passion. A remarkable unbeaten recent record, and a current fast and adaptable playing style, with so many experienced players, that is very difficult to counteract, once the pattern of play goes against you. Earlier subs, leaving us more open, could have easily resulted in a 1-2 or 1-3 defeat.

England currently have a very strong, settled, and tactically flexible 3-5 player defence. Possibly the best, or at least most important, part of the squad. That is why Southgate plays as he does, and why his choices will have appeared too cautious in the final (The absent Trent Alexander-Arnold could have made a significant difference). But - it was Italy, and the immaculately-attired Roberto Mancini's Italy. Look at it in context.

****
(**)Penalties....It does appear to have been Southgate's choices...he takes the responsibility, as we'd expect...admirable man.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-shaw-england-penalty-21029903

Chiellini on Saka: still a red card for me, by the current laws: serious foul play/denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

On the penalties, I saw Southgate say last night that the decisions on who would take penalties, and the order they would take them in, had been decided on the basis of the who had the best record in training. The five he asked to take penalties were the five best in the practice penalties in training. Of course, with hindsight that seems too inflexible; you can't emulate the pressure in training of having to take the penalties in a final. It might also have been better to temper any previous plans with how the players had performed on the night.

It was also telling that Southgate admitted he was reluctant to put Rashford and Sancho on until the last few minutes, because he was worried that Italy would score in extra time if he gave up his defensive formation, and he felt putting more attacking players on would be too much of a gamble.

[johncorrigan]

Do they care ? No. They are a massive blemish on the beautiful game.

I have to disagree with this. Italy were a smart team with a very good manager. Mancini did similar to Southgate, building a team mentality without any real superstars. They played some excellent football, and of course you can criticise Italy for their more cynical side, but that is what Italian football does and has done as long as I have ever watched their national team. They know how to win. You don't get a thirty-odd match unbeaten run without some dodgy tactics. I would agree with jayne that England would have benefited from a fit Trent Alexander Arnold; as Italy would from a fit Spinazzola. England have a good group of football players with a good team mentality and could do well in the World Cup next year as long as the players can be persuaded to stick with the team, and don't bow out to the cowardly comments of those nasty, racist trolls who claim to follow England.

[eighthobstruction]

Too many disgusting reactions to count (I take it you mean racist reaction by English people, to Saka as well as the other unlucky penalty takers). Nauseating “fans” / country, ours, too often…

....I actually meant that touchline grab (so much more than a grab) by Chiellini....but you are dead right about the rest of aftermath Nick....
....And Stanfordian - agree with you on all you say....

[Dave2002]

Always thought after extra time tournaments should be decided on yellow cards . On that score it’s England 6 Italy 12 . They have the highest foul tally by far (93 ) and do not deserve the trophy . Do they care ? No. They are a massive blemish on the beautiful game.

Very interesting point.

To me there seemed to be a lot of "physicality" in the games, and I really can't say that some of the games looked like matches I saw a long while ago. The opening goal (England) was excellent - and as far as I could tell, based on sheer skill.

However it is "just" a game, and if football afficionados think the game was good and the outcome fair, so be it.

What is a massive blemish on this is the hateful messages which have been sent to members of the England team after the match. If any similar messages were sent to members of other teams I would also condemn those.

I'm also not keen on booing national anthems of teams from other countries. Some football "fans" need to be given sessions in tolerance.

Also, the behaviour of "fans" who think it's OK to celebrate and leave trash in parts of London - such as Leicester Square - are just appalling.
There is no real excuse for that.

[LHC]

Always thought after extra time tournaments should be decided on yellow cards . On that score it’s England 6 Italy 12 . They have the highest foul tally by far (93 ) and do not deserve the trophy . Do they care ? No. They are a massive blemish on the beautiful game.

It used to be done that way in Rugby. In 1995 if South Africa and New Zealand had still been tied after extra time, the title would have been decided on their respective disciplinary records. South Africa would have lost, because one of their players had been sent off in their earlier game against Canada.

Sadly, Rugby World Cup have now dropped this, and drawn games are decided by extra time, followed by a period of ‘sudden death’. If the teams are still tied, there is then a ‘kick-off’, with the teams attempting drop goals.

[Forget It (U2079353)]

I agree that penalty shoot outs are just not football.

How about this for an idea:
When there is a level score after 90 mins
We play the Golden goal for the next half hour - but with a twist.
Both teams lose a man (chosen by the manager) every three mins.
With less and less players on the field the odds of a goal will go up and up.
That way the team game element is preserved until the last.