The Round Ball Game - II

[jayne lee wilson]

The really, desperately sad thing is to think that this was your own real life experience.

What? What?

Why on Earth is it "Sad"? By which definition of that little word? As for my "Real Life" (another deeply problematical term in my philosophy seminars).... well, I really have had quite a few of those, running in complex, parallel and/or consecutive rollercoasters of event and emotion, internal and external...you hardly know about any of all that...

This is so very disappointing from you V; condescending and presumptive of my own inner and outer lives, which have been so enriched by Football specifically and many other sports (and Art, and Nature, and friendship, and...)... but above all: your comment is ignorant and arrogant.
You don't have privileged access into my psyche (it remains questionable whether I consistently have this myself), and your guessed-at judgment is nowhere near the truth as I usually perceive it. So it doesn't upset me much, but it saddens me that you could say it.

See #6074 for the bigger picture..... I've said almost all I can on this subject; so on to Rome, and let all the true fans here continue to enjoy our special moments, our beautiful game, this wonderful tournament!

[Belgrove]

Not wishing to tread on anyone’s dreams, I intrude on this thread to alert to an interesting piece on R4’s Front Row about Mark-Anthony Turnage’s new work Up For Grabs, which is a symphonic poem with jazz trio that will accompany edited highlights of the 1989 Liverpool v Arsenal title-deciding encounter. Interviewer John Wilson is the son of Arsenal keeper Bob. The premier is in November at the Barbican (coupled with The Firebird).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xdqr

[LHC]

My own real life experience of the feelings I had watching that match, my first experience of sharp sporting disappointment, was indeed my own real life experience.
It all happens in the head.

I do seriously wish that people who come on this thread to try to belittle, foist their own agenda, point the finger, point score or whatever, would go and do it somewhere else.
This thread is usually the most civilised place on the entire internet. I like it like that. You know, when we talk about football .

I’m not a big football fan; don’t follow any particular team, and tend not to be as emotionally invested as others (although I have been enjoying this tournament), but I couldn’t agree more with your comments. I don’t see the point of reading a thread devoted to something you hate, and even worse posting negative comments and denigrating other posters, and their enthusiasms.

There are quite a few discussions on this forum that I have no interest in; so I don’t bother to read them or post in them. Would that others would do the same.

[Joseph K]

If you don't get it, how can you judge it as unreal? Whereof you do not know, thereof be silent…..
(The raucous Mitchell & Webb sketch is cheap and shallow, with more than a hint of tired, dated middle-class snobbery toward sport. So deafeningly relentless, it becomes the thing it presumes to mock. So it doesn’t hit any of its presumed easy targets. Just very clichéd water off the ducks’ backs.

The Mitchell and Webb sketch is absolutely hilarious - nail + head comedy, very wittily taking down the ludicrousness of football. That is, from my point of view.

I think you've just invented the phenomenon of middle class snobbery towards sport - it definitely is not a thing, most of my family, including those who're middle class, are into sport. From my perspective, it was quite liberating not having one's emotions arbitrarily affected by some game or other, when I decided as a teenager to stop taking an interest in football and other sports.

That said, I don't find it difficult to avoid if I wish, and my mum will talk to me about a game if she thinks it's worthy of note. And evidently, recently I've taken to looking at this thread out of curiosity.

[Edgy 2]

The Mitchell and Webb sketch is absolutely hilarious - nail + head comedy, very wittily taking down the ludicrousness of football. That is, from my point of view.

I think you've just invented the phenomenon of middle class snobbery towards sport - it definitely is not a thing, most of my family, including those who're middle class, are into sport. From my perspective, it was quite liberating not having one's emotions arbitrarily affected by some game or other, when I decided as a teenager to stop taking an interest in football and other sports.

That said, I don't find it difficult to avoid if I wish, and my mum will talk to me about a game if she thinks it's worthy of note. And evidently, recently I've taken to looking at this thread out of curiosity.

Eh ????

[LMcD]

Eh ????

Surely the Mitchell and Webb sketch is about the attitudes of those who are mad keen on football and those who aren't that bothered. It's not an attack on football. Whether or not you like David Mitchell's style, one thing he certainly ain't is raucous!
I don't see what harm is done by a humorous yet forthright discussion of the coverage of a particular sport or competition.

[jayne lee wilson]

The Mitchell and Webb sketch is absolutely hilarious - nail + head comedy, very wittily taking down the ludicrousness of football. That is, from my point of view.

I think you've just invented the phenomenon of middle class snobbery towards sport - it definitely is not a thing, most of my family, including those who're middle class, are into sport. From my perspective, it was quite liberating not having one's emotions arbitrarily affected by some game or other, when I decided as a teenager to stop taking an interest in football and other sports.

That said, I don't find it difficult to avoid if I wish, and my mum will talk to me about a game if she thinks it's worthy of note. And evidently, recently I've taken to looking at this thread out of curiosity.

Shame you had to take this up J....I see you as a friend....

Your highlighted phrase is a dead giveaway, perfect example of the down-the-nose attitudes I grew up all too familiar with in the middle classes (from their "point of view" - doesn't get you off the hook); hence my description as "tired and dated"....(imagine if my film critic friend had taken the same view in 1982)...

But it hangs around in our culture (and sadly all too obvious, over and again, on these boards...) in many subliminal ways.

Mitchell makes no secret of his dislike of football, and produces a shallow, terribly over-stated parody about the media excitement around it. Attempting to mock a true passion from such a cowardly stance behind its media, he ignorantly deconstructs his own supposed satire, going on too long and too loud, without an iota of real wit or insight. Only someone who knows little about football and its modern presentations, and dislikes the sport anyway, could find it funny. Mere self-affirmation and self-congratulation for Mitchell and his acolytes.

Absolutely no more from me on this.... but I'm still your friend.

[LMcD]

Shame you had to take this up J....I see you as a friend....

Your highlighted phrase is a dead giveaway, perfect example of the down-the-nose attitudes I grew up all too familiar with in the middle classes (from their "point of view" - doesn't get you off the hook); hence my description as "tired and dated"....

But it hangs around in our culture (and sadly all too obvious, over and again, on these boards...) in many subliminal ways; Mitchell makes no secret of his dislike of football, and produces a shallow, terribly over-stated joke about the media excitement around it. So he ignorantly deconstructs his own supposed satire, going on too long and too loud. Only someone who knows little about football and its modern presentations, and dislikes the sport anyway, could find it funny. Mere self-affirmation and self-congratulation.

Absolutely no more from me on this.... but I'm still your friend.

I respectfully beg to differ, ma'am! It's a funny thing, is a sense of humour

[gurnemanz]

The Mitchell and Webb sketch is absolutely hilarious - nail + head comedy, very wittily taking down the ludicrousness of football.

I followed the link and watched this "sketch" (it hardly deserves the name). I wish I hadn't bothered. David Mitchell is usually good but misses the mark here. I found it puerile, unfunny, simplistic, futile, annoying and irrelevant. Not even remotely effective as satire or parody. The Fast Show's Ron Manager was a much better effort at making fun of football people.

[Edgy 2]

Surely the Mitchell and Webb sketch is about the attitudes of those who are mad keen on football and those who aren't that bothered. It's not an attack on football. Whether or not you like David Mitchell's style, one thing he certainly ain't is raucous!
I don't see what harm is done by a humorous yet forthright discussion of the coverage of a particular sport or competition.

Not the sketch, if people find that funny fair enough, I just don't get why Joseph or anyone for that matter would consider football to be ludicrous just because they don't like it

[LMcD]

Not the sketch, if people find that funny fair enough, I just don't get why Joseph or anyone for that matter would consider football to be ludicrous just because they don't like it

Why is it presumed (by some) that people who like the Mitchell and Webb sketch (a) don't understand football and the way it's presented, (b) don't like football and (c) think football is ludicrous? I would never contemplate watching or listening to the complete Ring Cycle, but I would never suggest that Wagner didn't know what he was doing or that he or his operas are ludicrous.

I don't dislike football, and my understanding of it might be considered limited, but I don't think it's ludicrous - I just happen to find tennis and rugby union easier to follow and more skillful and exciting. Links to examples of sketches by Mitchell and Webb and others that ridicule these sports and their followers are welcome!

There was a very amusing TV play and subsequent series called 'Outside Edge' which constantly poked fun at local cricket clubs and their members.

[LHC]

Why is it presumed (by some) that people who like the Mitchell and Webb sketch (a) don't understand football and the way it's presented, (b) don't like football and (c) think football is ludicrous? I would never contemplate watching or listening to the complete Ring Cycle, but I would never suggest that Wagner didn't know what he was doing or that he or his operas are ludicrous.

I don't dislike football, and my understanding of it might be considered limited, but I don't think it's ludicrous - I just happen to find tennis and rugby union easier to follow and more skillful and exciting. Links to examples of sketches by Mitchell and Webb and others that ridicule these sports and their followers are welcome!

There was a very amusing TV play and subsequent series called 'Outside Edge' which constantly poked fun at local cricket clubs and their members.

I suspect that Edgy 2 and others think Joseph K thinks football is ludicrous because that is how he described it in his post: "the ludicrousness of football". No presumption necessary in this case M'lud.

[LMcD]

I suspect that Edgy 2 and others think Joseph K thinks football is ludicrous because that is how he described it in his post: "the ludicrousness of football". No presumption necessary in this case M'lud.

'Your point is well made, LHC - proceed. Ah, it has just been brought to my attention that it is already 11.40 a.m. and so I think this would be an appropriate point at which to partake of luncheon. When proceedings resume at, let's say, 2.45 p.m. it is to be hoped that they will exhibit the level of respect and consideration which learned counsel are invited to display towards one another, if only for the benefit of an increasingly baffled set of jurors. I rise'.

I understand that there's some resentment among Liverpool fans at Everton's choice of Mr Benitez as their new manager - resentment that is misplaced, possibly, if you consider what ex-Canaries manager Paul Lambert achieved at Ipswich!

As a neutral 'outsider', I would have thought that if Everton were to become Premier League champions it might offset some of the disappointment that Liverpudlians will doubtless feel if the city loses its UNESCO seal of approval - such a loss being, as I understand it, attributable at least in part to Everton's proposed new stadium. Irony on a Hardyesque scale, what?

[french frank]

I suspect that Edgy 2 and others think Joseph K thinks football is ludicrous because that is how he described it in his post: "the ludicrousness of football". No presumption necessary in this case M'lud.

While we're waiting for a match to begin (I have suggested that perhaps a different thread would be appropriate to divide the opposing fans), I would say that a phrase like 'the ludicrousness of football' does not - to me - obviously refer to the game itself: the pitch, the playing positions, the rules, the tactics, and so on; but rather to concomitants such as the money paid to players, the commentators (Mitchell), the extent to which the game (as outlined above) comes to occupy such an important part of people's lives, the level of emotion it inspires - greater than any other sport (why should that be? why football?).

[Ein Heldenleben]

While we're waiting for a match to begin (I have suggested that perhaps a different thread would be appropriate to divide the opposing fans), I would say that a phrase like 'the ludicrousness of football' does not - to me - obviously refer to the game itself: the pitch, the playing positions, the rules, the tactics, and so on; but rather to concomitants such as the money paid to players, the commentators (Mitchell), the extent to which the game (as outlined above) comes to occupy such an important part of people's lives, the level of emotion it inspires - greater than any other sport (why should that be? why football?).

That’s a very complex question . It has something to do with its rootedness in Northern, London and Scots working class culture whilst at the same time being one of the few sports that has transcended the UK’s class divide. Cricket and Rugby Union / League just haven’t done that. It has a fluidity and simplicity that neither of the other sports can rival - though have their own beauties . It has very simple rules which are quite easy to enforce - so much so that you can have a pretty good game without a ref. It can be played with any number of players from 3 ( 3 and in to 11 a side) . You don’t need a lot of expensive gear to play it , it carries little risk of injury ...the reasons go on and on.