Are questions on pop music legit. for University Challenge?

[MrGongGong]

But interesting because it raises a similar question to the OP - I mean a genuine question, not a criticism: Why (as in 'I'm posing a question in a thoughtful way') do university music courses now focus on popular music in a way that they wouldn't have in previous eras?

I think there are two ways that courses approach this (there are probably more)

1: The approach (coming largely from an ethnomusicological perspective) where multiple musics are treated as valid areas of study.

and / or

2: Where a course is concentrated on music production and the creation of 'popular' musics

Is the music studied as a cultural creation or a musical one? For example, much popular music is song where the words/subjects can be studied separately from the music.

I'm not sure what the difference is? Isn't this true for lieder ?
(and you don't want me going on about Elgar again do you )

Implicit (maybe not the best word?) in the question is the assumption that the "classical mainstream" is somehow a universal thing.

To (mis)quote one of my own teachers
"How can anyone be expected to understand about Mozart if they were unaware of what was happening in Mongolia in 4BC"

[MrGongGong]

If there's a reference above that my speed-reading has missed, please excuse, but to be anywhere near the level of difficulty of some other UC subjects, shouldn't questions be set on music theory?

Indeed
and to be on a similar level of difficulty as some of the other subjects it would be about something like Stochastic processes or 'Modes of Limited Transposition' rather than the "what key signature is this? " type

[french frank]

I'm not sure what the difference is? Isn't this true for lieder ?

I'd say not because even with, say, Schubert, the words are usually unremarkable, by poets otherwise hardly known. My impression is that in popular music there is a sense that the words capture the contemporary concerns of, especially, the young. Are popular songs often through composed, no 'chorus'? That said, a Schubert song performed without any words might appear to lack something.

Implicit (maybe not the best word?) in the question is the assumption that the "classical mainstream" is somehow a universal thing.

I would never claim that classical music of any sort is universal! (Though I'm not sure that any particular kind of music is 'universal').

To (mis)quote one of my own teachers
"How can anyone be expected to understand about Mozart if they were unaware of what was happening in Mongolia in 4BC"

His/her point being?

I see there is a group called 'Buddy Holly & the Cricketers' which goes on tour - though they claim they are not a tribute band.

[MrGongGong]

His/her point being?

Western Classical Muisc is fundamentally connected to the other musics of the world and not a separate phenomena.

(the Mongolians invented bowing)

[vinteuil]

"How can anyone be expected to understand about Mozart if they were unaware of what was happening in Mongolia in 4BC"

... how aware was Mozart of what was happening in Mongolia in 4BC?

[Bryn]

Squelch What sort of place do you meet all these late teen and young adult girls who are enthusiastic about Buddy Holly? They would be interesting to talk to about their other musical interests. Interesting to me, I mean.

A couple through work (part-time summer employees taken on for promotional activities) and others through family and friends. I think the mode of his death helped make him rather more of an icon for some young women of each generation.

[MrGongGong]

... how aware was Mozart of what was happening in Mongolia in 4BC?

Completely unaware, I would guess ?
but very aware of Turkish music and so on

one doesn't have to be consciously aware of something for it to have impact

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If there's a reference above that my speed-reading has missed, please excuse, but to be anywhere near the level of difficulty of some other UC subjects, shouldn't questions be set on music theory?

But the Art History questions are never about painterly techniques, are they?

(And literature questions only occasionally include matters of prosody or linguistics.)

It might be worth remembering/bringing to the attention of anyone who didn't see the programme, that the particular round of questions we're discussing was not a basic "Who is singing here?" Pairs of tracks were played, and the students had first to identify both, and then (to get the point) identify who was the common thread between both. It wasn't just (as many UC questions tend to be) "what can you remember?" - using that knowledge to make connections was also required.

[Bryn]

I'd say not because even with, say, Schubert, the words are usually unremarkable, by poets otherwise hardly known. My impression is that in popular music there is a sense that the words capture the contemporary concerns of, especially, the young. Are popular songs often through composed, no 'chorus'? That said, a Schubert song performed without any words might appear to lack something. ...

Apposite that you should mention Schubert in this context. Was it not the director of several documentary film dealing with the lives of 'classical' composers who (in)famously asserted that Lennon and McCartney were the finest song writers since Schubert?

[french frank]

Apposite that you should mention Schubert in this context. Was it not the director of several documentary film dealing with the lives of 'classical' composers who (in)famously asserted that Lennon and McCartney were the finest song writers since Schubert?

Wilfrid Mellers, if I recall. It was considered at least debatable! Second thought: didn't he say they were as good as Schubert?

Further research suggests Tony Palmer - but Mellers devoted a book to the Beatles.

[Bryn]

Wilfrid Mellers, if I recall. It was considered at least debatable! Second thought: didn't he say they were as good as Schubert?

Further research suggests Tony Palmer - but Mellers devoted a book to the Beatles.

'twas indeed Palmer, who now that Frank Zappa is safely dead, claims to have directed 200 Motels, rather than only having helped out with the graphic effects. I, for one, do not concur with his assessment of Lennon and/or McCartney. Good, but not that good.

[Richard Barrett]

I'd say not because even with, say, Schubert, the words are usually unremarkable, by poets otherwise hardly known.

Goethe (84 songs) and Schiller were among the poets he set most often, and he also set Heine, Rückert, Eichendorff, Klopstock and other well-known poets, so I don't think this really holds up!

[Stanfordian]

I'm not sure that anything is too light for University study these days. I know someone who's thesis subject was the 'Carry On' films. Probably comes under popular culture or something.

[ardcarp]

If there's a reference above that my speed-reading has missed, please excuse, but to be anywhere near the level of difficulty of some other UC subjects, shouldn't questions be set on music theory?

Like, 'What's the leading note in the scale of C# minor?' They'd have to B# to get that.

Moving swiftly on, an awful lot of pop and pop-musicians rely very heavily on a few common chords (shoot me down, Gongers, I am Tita-ni-um) meaning that they are innately very, very conservative. Jazz musicians OTOH are quite cool on the harmonic front. I think I'd be OK with jazz questions on UC.

[french frank]

Goethe (84 songs) and Schiller were among the poets he set most often, and he also set Heine, Rückert, Eichendorff, Klopstock and other well-known poets, so I don't think this really holds up!

No, it doesn't. I was looking at the wrong songs Though he is reckoned to have composed about 600. I suppose it depends on your knowledge of German poets too.