Arts in the UK post-Brexit

[MrGongGong]

So, returning to the subject, some interesting views from Nicholas Hytner on the situation of the arts post-Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/...tional-theatre

Yeah yeah yeah
but what does he know?
He seems to be saying the same thing as me which is very worrying indeed

Rees-Mogg said Handel had not needed freedom of movement to write Messiah in London.

How on earth are people like this allowed to be in charge of anything more important than the class rubbers? (though he could probably have used a few of the other sort !)

[DracoM]

But to date it hasn't ended at all, let alone "well". Let's wait and see what the courts decide and how Parliament decides to respond if either or both decide in favour of the electorallydisaffected ex-pats. In the meantime, the sheer to-ings and fro-ings and internecine squabblings of those in "power" over what to do and what might be acceptable to whom seem to have precious little to do with "the will of the people" and all to do with "my Chequers is bigger than your Chequers" posturings, ensuring nothing besides the perpetuation of the slippery slope approach to a situation in which it looks ever increasingly likely that, on 30 March next year, most people won't even know whether or not they're part of a Brexited society...

[aeolium]

So, returning to the subject, some interesting views from Nicholas Hytner on the situation of the arts post-Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/...tional-theatre

Hytner of course can no more evaluate the situation in the arts post-Brexit than anyone else, until he can see the exact terms on which the UK is to leave as well as government policy towards the arts and migration issues post-Brexit.

He mentions freedom of movement being indispensable for the arts in the UK - that is of course European freedom of movement. What about artists from outside the EU? Why is it right that they should be disadvantaged in respect of opportunities to work and live in the UK compared with their European counterparts? It always astonishes me that people are so willing to defend this privilege, particularly in the light of Europe's colonial history. The cultures of countries outside the EU should be as important to us as those within it: we should be able to appreciate those as widely and extensively as those of Europe, or we are merely in danger of aping the kind of European exceptionalism that was a common attitude in colonial times.

Hytner does not mention one other major problem in the arts world which has been recently highlighted - the increasing social and cultural homogeneity of it, the lack of working class representation. See for instance this article referencing a report on the issue:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/apr/16/arts-industry-report-asks-where-are-all-the-working-class-people

This aspect may also account for the shock and surprise about the Brexit vote expressed even by leading arts figures (and it has been estimated that perhaps 95% of people in the arts opposed Brexit); they appeared to be quite unaware of the attitudes that underpinned the Leave vote in predominantly poorer and deprived communities, simply because there was very little representation of that community within their world. And while Hytner rightly laments the failures in education policy and decreasing provision for the arts in education, he does not go on to consider the wider social and economic issues that have made life so wretched for so many people. Why are there so few plays on stage or TV or film about these issues, or about the worst economic catastrophe since the Great Depression? In the 1970s or 1980s, when there was much greater representation of working-class actors and writers in the arts, this kind of absence of social and political comment would simply have been impossible.

[MrGongGong]

He mentions freedom of movement being indispensable for the arts in the UK - that is of course European freedom of movement. What about artists from outside the EU? Why is it right that they should be disadvantaged in respect of opportunities to work and live in the UK compared with their European counterparts? .

I hear this opinion frequently and it's a classic example of "whataboutery" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutery).
Freedom of movement within the EU is part of the benefit that we, in the UK, have from being part of the EU , paying in and taking part. Those of us who work in music probably benefit more from this than others BUT the solution to the poor treatment of those from outside the EU is not to deny the right to work to everyone. I've just been working for a well known UK orchestra, the musicians often have working weeks that include working in several different EU countries both playing and teaching as well as longer international tours. The post Brexit proposals look like that this will be almost impossible. Sure, there still will be touring BUT it looks like we are going to lose a great deal.

There is a lot of disengenous nonsense talked about this from those who shout about the rights of those outside the EU but if you look at who they align themselves with outside the UK (not mentioning any names ) it's very clear what their real agendas are.

The proposed idea that only those earning more than £50,000 should be welcome effectively excludes most of those working in music.

[french frank]

What about artists from outside the EU? Why is it right that they should be disadvantaged in respect of opportunities to work and live in the UK compared with their European counterparts?

So everyone should be 'disadvantaged'? Does EU freedom of movement automatically ban other nations from migrating to EU countries? If the UK doesn't allow other migrants from outside the EU to come freely to the UK, isn't that a UK decision? EU freedom of movement does not simply allow people to move freely, it guarantees that such movement can be made with minimal regulations. Much like free movement between the nations of the UK.

What do you want - everyone to be able to move freely to and from the UK or no one to be allowed to do so?

A similar argument for the question of social integration: if some feel there are barriers (and the nature of the barriers need to be distinguished) to their enjoying the arts, no one should enjoy them? Or we all stay in our own little communities and enjoy them among ourselves?

My niece posted a photo of a ticket that she had just obtained for a Take That concert in Manchester. Not only will she travel up to Manchester, she's paying £99 for her ticket. Do my reasons for avoiding such a delight share any similarity with the 'working class' avoidance of the arts, particularly classical music?

Hytner of course can no more evaluate the situation in the arts post-Brexit than anyone else

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure he has a better idea than me: freedom of movement is, apparently, out. Punkt. And he knows what that will mean.

[Beef Oven!]

Prompted by the reference to Hytner (who has no better objective idea about post-Brexit arts than anyone else, right now) I think the Arts luvvies have been happily ensconced in their own irrelevant thing for many a year, and the EU facilities have laced their cocoon. They need to respond to the Brexit challenges by adapting, not whingeing and lashing out. They might even think that making their endeavours more relevant to the general population could be a step in this direction. But today, travelling from lower Lower Clapton to Walthamstow, I couldn't help but think what benefits the local communities would reap from an influx of Tuvan throat singers into the local socio-economic system.

[teamsaint]

Freedoms within the borders of the EU do inevitably negatively affect opportunities for movement, trade etc for those outside. That is part of the point. Better off in the club is the view from the inside.
It really isn't “ disingenuous” to point out this sort of thing. It may be naive to think that the Uk leaving is going to positively affect the situation for non EU citizens, but that improvement remains a worthy aim, IMO.

And just pointing at who people “ align “ themselves with is, especially in the current climate of unholy alliances, is a very unreliable guide to peoples views and intentions.

[ahinton]

Prompted by the reference to Hytner (who has no better objective idea about post-Brexit arts than anyone else, right now) I think the Arts luvvies have been happily ensconced in their own irrelevant thing for many a year, and the EU facilities have laced their cocoon. They need to respond to the Brexit challenges by adapting, not whingeing and lashing out. They might even think that making their endeavours more relevant to the general population could be a step in this direction. But today, travelling from lower Lower Clapton to Walthamstow, I couldn't help but think what benefits the local communities would reap from an influx of Tuvan throat singers into the local socio-economic system.

But as we none of us know what form any Brexit might take and, perhaps more importantly, whether it will even occur at all, how can anyone reasonably and realistically be expected to "respond to the Brexit challenges by adapting, not whingeing and lashing out" when no one can know to what to adapt or against what to whinge and lash out?

[teamsaint]

But as we none of us know what form any Brexit might take and, perhaps more importantly, whether it will even occur at all, how can anyone reasonably and realistically be expected to "respond to the Brexit challenges by adapting, not whingeing and lashing out" when no one can know to what to adapt or against what to whinge and lash out?

Businesses are already trying to adapt, and actually adapting.. Modern business has to adapt and anticipate all the time. Its how it goes.
There aren’t many certainties for very many businesses.
Keep flexible. Maximise revenue streams, develop new products, ensure you have the best staff, reduce costs, widen the supplier and customer base, plenty that can be done, with no real downside.

[MrGongGong]

Businesses are already trying to adapt, and actually adapting.. Modern business has to adapt and anticipate all the time. Its how it goes.
There aren’t many certainties for very many businesses.
Keep flexible. Maximise revenue streams, develop new products, ensure you have the best staff, reduce costs, widen the supplier and customer base, plenty that can be done, with no real downside.

How exactly does that work for a small ensemble playing new music ?
or for a University Music department?

Treating EVERYTHING as a business like a shop isn't always such a good idea

So, for the ensemble, I was working with yesterday, " ensure you have the best staff" means having those musicians who specialise in the music that the ensemble is expert in.
Given that these musicians live all over the EU and at the moment are able to come and play here as easily as in Germany, France etc and that those based in the UK also play all over the EU on a weekly basis, where is the "opportunity"?
I guess it's a great one for the ensembles and festivals in the rest of Europe but for us, in the UK?

"No real downside"?
I guess if you are a spiv business then yes, it's great.

[teamsaint]

How exactly does that work for a small ensemble playing new music ?
or for a University Music department?

Treating EVERYTHING as a business like a shop isn't always such a good idea

So, for the ensemble, I was working with yesterday, " ensure you have the best staff" means having those musicians who specialise in the music that the ensemble is expert in.
Given that these musicians live all over the EU and at the moment are able to come and play here as easily as in Germany, France etc and that those based in the UK also play all over the EU on a weekly basis, where is the "opportunity"?
I guess it's a great one for the ensembles and festivals in the rest of Europe but for us, in the UK?

"No real downside"?
I guess if you are a spiv business then yes, it's great.

I’m answering Hinto’s point about business.

Real, job creating, non spiv business.

[MrGongGong]

I’m answering Hinto’s point about business.

Real, job creating, non spiv business.

Ok

[Pulcinella]

Businesses are already trying to adapt, and actually adapting.. Modern business has to adapt and anticipate all the time. Its how it goes.
There aren’t many certainties for very many businesses.
Keep flexible. Maximise revenue streams, develop new products, ensure you have the best staff, reduce costs, widen the supplier and customer base, plenty that can be done, with no real downside.

I would have thought that one certainty would be that there will be more paperwork for anyone trading with a former European 'partner'. That in itself is a costly downside. Just think how many more police or doctors/nurses we could have had had taxpayer money not been spent on the Department of Brexit, and how much better many companies could have performed if they had not had to divert time and energy (frustration and money) wondering how things will pan out for them on 30 March 2019 with the paucity of information currently available from HMG.

[teamsaint]

I would have thought that one certainty would be that there will be more paperwork for anyone trading with a former European 'partner'. That in itself is a costly downside. Just think how many more police or doctors/nurses we could have had had taxpayer money not been spent on the Department of Brexit, and how much better many companies could have performed if they had not had to divert time and energy (frustration and money) wondering how things will pan out for them on 30 March 2019 with the paucity of information currently available from HMG.

Well the admin side of it ( like everything else) is up in the air. You may be right. Or a Norway type of agreement may nullify much of the extra cost and work.
I’m not saying you can’t make preparations that may indeed turn out to be a costly waste of resource. Or might be use of resource that turns out to be necessary given whatever changes happen.
Just that there is plenty that you can do, that would have upside, that probably businesses ought to be doing anyway.


The question of businesses performing better , currently, if there was a more stable environment is fair enough, but I was responding to Hinto’s point about what businesse can actually do given the uncertainties.

[french frank]

Freedoms within the borders of the EU do inevitably negatively affect opportunities for movement, trade etc for those outside. That is part of the point. Better off in the club is the view from the inside.
It really isn't “ disingenuous” to point out this sort of thing. It may be naive to think that the Uk leaving is going to positively affect the situation for non EU citizens, but that improvement remains a worthy aim, IMO.

I think that justifies very little that is happening now. All things being equal, we are likely to continue to exchange, in these various ways, with our closest neighbours. Only now there is likely to be a higher price tag for us and more difficulties for both sides. As you suggest, this does not guarantee that people from more distant countries are likely to benefit.