Arts in the UK post-Brexit

[Pabmusic]

... I removed the reference to Mr Farage because I know that, given a chance, you will seize on such a throwaway remark and entirely ignore the substance of the argument put by Pabs and amplified by me...

Thank you, FF. And I in turn apologise for referring to Mr. Farage as "obnoxious" - "odious" would have been better.

[Beef Oven!]

Beef Oven, you keep saying that but in fact you contradict yourself if you deny the possibility of another vote - perhaps you don't? And there's really no need to add "You need to get over the fact that you didn't get your way", with or without a winky. I removed the reference to Mr Farage because I know that, given a chance, you will seize on such a throwaway remark and entirely ignore the substance of the argument put by Pabs and amplified by me. As you have now done twice.

You and Pabs are wrong if you think it's just a 'throwaway remark'. You think it's ok to describe Nigel in this way and assume you won't get challenged. I find it puzzling that intelligent, erudite people such that we have in this forum, will disaparage a public person because they don't like their politics.

16.1 million people are not being ignored, they just aren't getting their own way. We need to stop banging on about the referendum, or should I say the noisy people who won't accept the will of the people should stop banging on about it. Most people who voted to remain seem to have accepted the outcome. maybe you should to

[Beef Oven!]

Thank you, FF. And I in turn apologise for referring to Mr. Farage as "obnoxious" - "odious" would have been better.

Hilarious Pabs! You are so smart and funny. Nigel's actually a really nice bloke and it would nice of you, to stop being so ignorant and rude about him.

[Pabmusic]

"Arts in the UK"

Or a soapbox ?

Mr GG, I wish we could discuss this too, but since we have no idea what a post-Brexit world will be like (Mrs. May seems to be watering down her demands, and we might end up with a Norway-style relationship (ie: we accept EU rules, but have no say in anything) we can't really discuss this, can we?

[Pabmusic]

Hilarious Pabs! You are so smart and funny. Nigel's actually a really nice bloke and it would nice of you, to stop being so ignorant and rude about him.

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG, I wish we could discuss this too, but since we have no idea what a post-Brexit world will be like (Mrs. May seems to be watering down her demands, and we might end up with a Norway-style relationship (ie: we accept EU rules, but have no say in anything) we can't really discuss this, can we?

From what I learn from those actually involved in musics of many kinds it is a bit of a car crash in slow motion. Aside from my own experinece we really are facing many things being lost and long term collaborations ended.
But never mind, those who brought this about can carry on rambling into their beer about "opportunities" and the like

(I'm still waiting for a list of those involved in Culture, Science or Education who think this is a good idea and there are "opportunities" ..........)

[ahinton]

This is the point about the argument that '17.4m people voted for this' (whatever "this" was): it would be a 'democratic outrage' to ignore their view. Yet it is not a 'democratic outrage' to completely ignore 16.1m people, plus those who were denied a vote in the first place.

In a General Election, there is some sort of logic to say that British citizens living abroad should not be allowed to vote if, during the entire lifetime of the newly elected government (4-5 years), they are not likely to be returning to live in the UK. But that does not apply to a huge constitutional change likely to affect their own country, of which they are full citizens, when they return. To me, that seems like an unprecedented 'democratic outrage'.

Spot on in all particulars!

[ahinton]

Thank you. I was not allowed to vote because I live abroad, even though almost all my income is taxed at source in the UK. So I am a British tax-payer.

Then you were one of the victims of the government policy to debar ex-pats from voting and that is especially heinous in your case because you are a UK citizen and a UK taxpayer.

[ahinton]

Democracy is a process ff, not an outcome.

In practice, it is neither when its processes are overruled in favour of the use of an advisory non-legally binding public opinion poll.

You need to get over the fact that you didn't get your way in the referendum

Aside from the fact that she doesn't, no one has "gotten their way" as a conseqeunce of it yet because Brexit has not happened and it may yet not happen!

[Pabmusic]

Then you were one of the victims of the government policy to debar ex-pats from voting and that is especially heinous in your case because you are a UK citizen and a UK taxpayer.

Yes. Because I was a Civil Servant, my pension is taxed at source. I get fed up with being told "You don't pay taxes".

[ahinton]

You and Pabs are wrong if you think it's just a 'throwaway remark'. You think it's ok to describe Nigel in this way and assume you won't get challenged. I find it puzzling that intelligent, erudite people such that we have in this forum, will disaparage a public person because they don't like their politics.

16.1 million people are not being ignored, they just aren't getting their own way. We need to stop banging on about the referendum, or should I say the noisy people who won't accept the will of the people should stop banging on about it. Most people who voted to remain seem to have accepted the outcome. maybe you should to

I refrain from commenting on Mr Farage in the context of this thread, not least because, as his customary noisiness fails to obscure the fact that he is an ex-leader of a political party that has no MPs, his relevance to the thread is at best gravely compromised.

If we're talking about people "banging on", the most "banging on" that I get to hear is from those who persist in trotting out that wearisome and outworn cliché "the will of the people; if one is nevertheless to try to give it serious consideration, about how long might you expect such a will to last? With a GE in UK it's 5 years or less; whither the UK/EU referendum when it does not include an instrument as a GE does that enables the expression of a change of will?

[french frank]

You think it's ok to describe Nigel in this way

I had deliberately removed the offending quote, which might suggest you are mistaken.

and assume you won't get challenged.

On the contrary, I think it is quite legitimate to challenge an ad hominem; my point was that that should not be considered a full response, with no necessity to address the main point.

16.1 million people are not being ignored, they just aren't getting their own way.

You are maintaining what to me seems the unsatisfactory argument that a minority of the people (and 17.4m is clearly a minority of the people) can express 'the will of the people'. Your definition of 'the people' needs to be justified, since for me, I would accept that 51% of the voting population at the time (though I support the reduction of the voting age to 16) represented 'the will of the people' albeit not very convincingly. A mere 17.4m, in my view, does not.

[ahinton]

By the way, shouldn't the title of this thread have the words "if it occurs" placed at its end? FF? fhg? What say you?

[french frank]

So, returning to the subject, some interesting views from Nicholas Hytner on the situation of the arts post-Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/oct/12/brexit-is-black-cloud-for-uk-arts-says-nicholas-hytner-national-theatre

[Conchis]

'Arts in the D.K. post-Brexit?'

There won't be any.