Arts in the UK post-Brexit

[MrGongGong]

You find them if you are that keen, I did. Certainly lists of scientists, and one of artists.I don’t recall finding one of musicians.
Anyway, I’m not in the business really of proving people “wrong. “ That seems to me that is quite a big part of the problems we are undergoing.
And you ignored the rest of my post, which was integral to the point.

There is a small group of "artists for Brexit" but hardly more than you could fit on the back of a postage stamp
Scientists? I'm sure there are a handful but where ?
Those who are involved in international collaboration .... erm

Who needs "evidence" anyway when you can have a blue passport

Actually I think you are wrong on the second point which you think is integral
Culture is fundamental to the EU it always was
According to a former ambassador to the UK from another EU country, the big mistake the UK makes is to think that everything is about trade when it's not.

[teamsaint]

There is a small group of "artists for Brexit" but hardly more than you could fit on the back of a postage stamp
Scientists? I'm sure there are a handful but where ?
Those who are involved in international collaboration .... erm

Who needs "evidence" anyway when you can have a blue passport

Actually I think you are wrong on the second point which you think is integral
Culture is fundamental to the EU it always was
According to a former ambassador to the UK from another EU country, the big mistake the UK makes is to think that everything is about trade when it's not.

The second point was abour people keeping their heads down.

Anyway, the EU IS all about trade, the SM, CAP etc. Culture, as the numbers and the EUs negotiations have demonstrated, is a sideshow.

CAP £70 PPPA. culture £1 PPPA. And thats just the CAP. Thats your evidence on this.

The EU’s negotiation positions have been almost exclusively about the integrity of the SM,and the four freedoms. Culture nowhere to be seen. Which I think we can agree is a real shame.

[french frank]

Yes I do take your point about that element of unfairness about expectations, but it seems relevant in the context of MBs speech to the HoL.

All right, tit for tat, I'll take that point too

I've been thinking, though, of another way of looking at the value of the money spent. £600m is a lot of money, and each citizen doesn't get £1's worth: they get £600m each - or if not the full £600m, at least a lot more than £1. It's like if you go to a concert or an opera. You pay £10 for your seat, but you get the full value of what that performance or production has cost - if it cost half a million, you're getting half a million pounds' worth for your tenner.

And over all, the EU contributes quite a bit to citizens' lives, if they want to take advantage of it - well beyond the trading of goods and services. It offers all sorts of opportunities, for a start, be it through Erasmus or the EUYO &c.

And an awful lot of the regulations which some people seem to consider irksome are for the benefit of ordinary citizens, whether it's the labelling of foodstuffs or the safety standards or directives on water quality. Cui bono? People have been brainwashed into thinking of it all as the EU's unelected bureaucrats 'making our laws'.

[MrGongGong]

The second point was abour people keeping their heads down.

Anyway, the EU IS all about trade, the SM, CAP etc. Culture, as the numbers and the EUs negotiations have demonstrated, is a sideshow.

CAP £70 PPPA. culture £1 PPPA. And thats just the CAP. Thats your evidence on this.

The EU’s negotiation positions have been almost exclusively about the integrity of the SM,and the four freedoms. Culture nowhere to be seen. Which I think we can agree is a real shame.

Yeah right
keeping their "heads down" and if it was such a great opportunity why on earth would they do that?
Aaaah yes it's a huge conspiracy by the "Liberal Elite" .... foil hats on chaps

The EU isn't all about trade at all
Your "evidence" demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the way the UK views this.
By placing simple figures above everything else and then saying it somehow "proves" something is daft.
Can't you see what you did there ?
As this IS about culture and the view of those who ARE involved in it are almost in total agreement that it's a car crash then why ignore those people in favour of bean counters ?

[teamsaint]

Yeah right
keeping their "heads down" and if it was such a great opportunity why on earth would they do that?
Aaaah yes it's a huge conspiracy by the "Liberal Elite" .... foil hats on chaps

The EU isn't all about trade at all
Your "evidence" demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the way the UK views this.
By placing simple figures above everything else and then saying it somehow "proves" something is daft.
Can't you see what you did there ?
As this IS about culture and the view of those who ARE involved in it are almost in total agreement that it's a car crash then why ignore those people in favour of bean counters ?

I think a 70 - 1 difference in spending ( and the 70 is only part of it ) pretty adequately demontrates when the EU’s spending priorities lie. No different to governments all over Europe.

There really isn’t some qualitative difference in what the EU and UK are seeking. On both sides it is about trade, markets, money.
Nobody is seriously talking about arts and culture. Not our govt, not the EU negotiators. For the EU it is all about the integrity of the SM etc .For the UK is about , well I’m not sure really, but not arts and culture for sure.

Do you really believe that the EU is not about trade ?

Somebody should mention that to the negotiating teams, if it is true.

[MrGongGong]

I think a 70 - 1 difference in spending ( and the 70 is only part of it ) pretty adequately demontrates when the EU’s spending priorities lie. No different to governments all over Europe.

There really isn’t some qualitative difference in what the EU and UK are seeking. On both sides it is about trade, markets, money.
Nobody is seriously talking about arts and culture. Not our govt, not the EU negotiators. For the EU it is all about the integrity of the SM. For the UK is about , well I’m not sure really, but not arts and culture for sure.

Do you really believe that the EU is not about trade ?

Somebody should mention that to the negotiating teams, if it is true.

I didn't say it wasn't about trade
BUT that it's not ALL about that
As for the "negotiation teams"

You are insisting on looking at everything in terms of money
which isn't necessarily the measure of significance

And as for the vast number of Scientists, Educationalists and others "keeping their heads down"

[teamsaint]

I didn't say it wasn't about trade
BUT that it's not ALL about that
As for the "negotiation teams"

You are insisting on looking at everything in terms of money
which isn't necessarily the measure of significance

And as for the vast number of Scientists, Educationalists and others "keeping their heads down"

You said “ it isn’t about trade at all”. Which is rather different to what you say in your post #336.

I’m not insisting on looking at anything in any way, It just is all about money.

You really should stop misquoting people ( I never said “ vast “ numbers, for example, in fact I specifically said it was small numbers).

Anyway, you keep on thinking it’s not all about money, and let us know when Barnier and Raable get onto funding for music, museums, whatever.

[oddoneout]

Yes, we agree there . I meant it's not fair to suggest that the EU ought to spend more (how much more?). Like suggesting the NHS should provide everyone with a cat. The EU is also spending on educational projects (I read about the coding activities/programming literacy, just finishing, available to all - it may not cost the EU anything at all, I don't know, but it the enabling, facilitating which is valuable). I wonder how much just doesn't get publicised in the UK.

Did I make a mistake by a factor of about, ooh, 100 million in my maths earlier????

Most of it I suspect, certainly in England, and not just arts and education related things either.It is no wonder that the public thinks that the EU doesn't 'do' anything for them when such information is not given any prominence, or mentioned by politicians except very occasionally at a local level. A woman I got chatting to at the beginning of the summer was telling me all the bad things about the EU she 'knew' from reading the Daily Mail every day. As she had previously mentioned tat she was looking forward to attending some of the events that were happening at the well regarded arts festival in the nearby city I asked her if she had noticed how many of the events were being supported by EU funding and involved performers and projects from EU countries. She hadn't and didn't seem to think it would be significant so I suggested she read the programme brochure and look for the blue circle and the acknowledgements.

[MrGongGong]

You said “ it isn’t about trade at all”. Which is rather different to what you say in your post #336.

I’m not insisting on looking at anything in any way, It just is all about money.

You really should stop misquoting people ( I never said “ vast “ numbers, for example, in fact I specifically said it was small numbers).

Anyway, you keep on thinking it’s not all about money, and let us know when Barnier and Raable get onto funding for music, museums, whatever.

I said this

"The EU isn't all about trade at all "

Post 334

Not everything is about money
but the EU funding facilitates many significant cultural projects (and many of us wish there were more)
walking away from this is stupid

I suggest you take your own advice about quoting

It just is all about money.

I guess you base that opinion on EU cultural projects (which is the subject of this thread) on your experience of them ?

[teamsaint]

I said this

"The EU isn't all about trade at all "

Post 334

Not everything is about money
but the EU funding facilitates many significant cultural projects (and many of us wish there were more)
walking away from this is stupid

I suggest you take your own advice about quoting

You are right . i missed an “all”.

But it really doesn’t change the meaning. At all.

Not everything about is about money. But it is in these negotiations.

An understanding of that doean’t mean that I ( and others) don’t think cultural initiatives aren’t important and welcome. But they are a sideshow on the European level. Sadly.
70 to 1.

Oh and don’t forget your own misquotes.

i could do them in stupid big bold font for you , if it helps.

[MrGongGong]

You are right . i missed an “all”.

But it really doesn’t change the meaning. At all.

WTF ?
YES IT DOES
It changes its completely

[Bryn]

With tomorrow in mind, just a little reminder that 63% of the U.K. electorate did NOT vote for Brexit.

[Beef Oven!]

With tomorrow in mind, just a little reminder that 63% of the U.K. electorate did NOT vote for Brexit.

ACTUALLY:

Most people who voted, voted to leave the European Union.

[teamsaint]

WTF ?
YES IT DOES
It changes its completely

But it’s still wrong.Because it is all ( like it or not) about trade, through the mechanisms of the SM and four freedoms.

[MrGongGong]

But it’s still wrong.Because it is all ( like it or not) about trade, through the mechanisms of the SM and four freedoms.

I don't agree
the word ALL means something
There is more than trade
strange that i've been working for several years on a pan EU project involving 7 partners which according to you doesn't count
strange thing because someone has been putting money into my bank account for the work i've done
but i'm obviously imagining it
as are all the other musicians I know who have been working on this and similar projects