Arts in the UK post-Brexit

[Beef Oven!]

Well,every time anyone with any experience says something you disagree with you dismiss it as nonsene and parrot on the script you have learn't so well

The fact that you can't see any reason for something when ALL the people who actually know about it say the opposite might tell you something ?
But maybe it really is all about you and there is nothing to learn from those with expertise ?

I respect expertise. Not keen on experts of course.

You need to think through what "all these people are saying". I have heard very little about a post-Brexit lack of freedom of movement that amounts to very much. The problems referred to seem very solvable. And if you or anyone else presents them as insurmountable or even definite in the first place, I will challenge that.

I do genuinely believe the concern is real and understandable.

[MrGongGong]

I respect expertise. Not keen on experts of course.

You need to think through what "all these people are saying". I have heard very little about a post-Brexit lack of freedom of movement that amounts to very much. The problems referred to seem very solvable. And if you or anyone else presents them as insurmountable or even definite in the first place, I will challenge that.

I do genuinely believe the concern is real and understandable.

Like I said
Give me the list of people involved in culture, education or science who think this is a good idea then

You have NO respect for expertise because when anyone with it says something you don't agree with you dismiss it and start telling stories about how you and your sister rode the magical train to Narnia in the past zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Come on

or just make more stuff up ?

Why not stop telling other people what to do?

[Beef Oven!]

Like I said
Give me the list of people involved in culture, education or science who think this is a good idea then

You have NO respect for expertise because when anyone with it says something you don't agree with you dismiss it and start telling stories about how you and your sister rode the magical train to Narnia in the past zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Come on

or just make more stuff up ?

Why not stop telling other people what to do?

I haven't made anything up. It's all true.

I haven't any respect for anyone who says UK orchestras can't gig in the EU in great numbers, post Brexit. It's arrant nonsense to say it's impossible.

I'm not telling people what to do. I'm saying it will be possible to continue with a high level of activity post Brexit. I suppose what I will tell people to do is quit being negative and saying it's impossible when it's not.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

PS; I used to live in Totnes but now i know that Narnia isn't REAL

It's just like everywhere else, but more expensive.

[french frank]

I'm surprised that people like you and ff who are normally admirably fasidious, readily accept the idea that we were constricted before the EU and sensible travel will be impossible once we have exited the EU.

Forget what was the position pre-EU, pre-Treaty of Rome, pre-Maastricht. Freedom of movement within the EU is reciprocal, so either the UK continues as it has done, accepting EU citizens (which apparently is one reason Leavers voted to leave) or UK citizens will not have freedom of movement within the EU. Consider this point (and the whole article):

"By contrast, back in the interregnum period of the 1960s and 1970s, before membership of the EEC started to take effect, the UK was considered the sick man of Europe. Post-war unemployment was low and the economy grew, but at a slower rate than our closest neighbours. That started to change once we joined the EU and after the single market reforms of the 1980s."

What it's suggesting is that when the UK was 'the sick man of Europe' no one wanted to come here anyway. It was only when the economy began to recover that the situation changed. And freedom of movement never was simply about 'freedom to travel' ('I booked my ticket, got on the train and showed my passport at the borders').

Of course, the final deal could include a special dispensation for musicians and other artists. And other categories of workers. Students, of course. Seasonal agricultural workers (if I understand correctly, though, the solution to the lack of fruit pickers is apparently to cut down on the number of hectares given over to soft fruit).

Rightly or wrongly, if a club is constituted primarily for the benefit of its members, if you want the benefits, you join the club.

[Beef Oven!]

Forget what was the position pre-EU, pre-Treaty of Rome, pre-Maastricht. Freedom of movement within the EU is reciprocal, so either the UK continues as it has done, accepting EU citizens (which apparently is one reason Leavers voted to leave) or UK citizens will not have freedom of movement within the EU. Consider this point (and the whole article):

"By contrast, back in the interregnum period of the 1960s and 1970s, before membership of the EEC started to take effect, the UK was considered the sick man of Europe. Post-war unemployment was low and the economy grew, but at a slower rate than our closest neighbours. That started to change once we joined the EU and after the single market reforms of the 1980s."

What it's suggesting is that when the UK was 'the sick man of Europe' no one wanted to come here anyway. It was only when the economy began to recover that the situation changed. And freedom of movement never was simply about 'freedom to travel' ('I booked my ticket, got on the train and showed my passport at the borders').

Of course, the final deal could include a special dispensation for musicians and other artists. And other categories of workers. Students, of course. Seasonal agricultural workers (if I understand correctly, though, the solution to the lack of fruit pickers is apparently to cut down on the number of hectares given over to soft fruit).

Rightly or wrongly, if a club is constituted primarily for the benefit of its members, if you want the benefits, you join the club.

I think it's true no-one wanted to come here back then. And it is wise to forget all the pre-EU etc stuff. But we must be careful about believing economic recovery is was due to our membership of the EU and it's predecessor institutions.

Also, I would agree with MrGG regarding the cultural attraction of the UK. This I think is the big reason that people want to come here (I'm thinking of EU migration only). Lord Bragg, Bob Geldof, Peter Gabriel echo this.

The other reason why people wish to come here from other parts of the EU is because their economies are failing. This why we have so many Portuguese, Italian, Greek and Spanish citizens working here (other nationalities, Polish, for example) are attracted to our higher value economy.

[teamsaint]

Like I said
Give me the list of people involved in culture, education or science who think this is a good idea then

You have NO respect for expertise because when anyone with it says something you don't agree with you dismiss it and start telling stories about how you and your sister rode the magical train to Narnia in the past zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Come on

or just make more stuff up ?

Why not stop telling other people what to do?

There are lists. easy enough to find online.
There is also evidence that people in those sectors, (who were probably quite small in number for the cultural reasons that others have posted, ) who were/are pro leave are keeping their heads down.

The EU doesn't really care about culture, otherwise it would spend more than £1 a head on its culture sub programme.

It cares about the integrity of its market,( as they have repeatedly told the UK negotiators) the one Thatcher was a driving force behind. FoM is just part of this.

And nobody has expertise in post brexit movement, so anything on the subject is , at present and at best, informed speculation.

[french frank]

The other reason why people wish to come here from other parts of the EU is because their economies are failing.

Not altogether true to say their economies are 'failing'. The Polish and Spanish economies have been growing, not withstanding some chronic problems (such as unemployment in Spain). Italy and Greece could be said to have 'failing economies', in that they are becoming less prosperous than they were.

Also, I would agree with MrGG regarding the cultural attraction of the UK. This I think is the big reason that people want to come here (I'm thinking of EU migration only). Lord Bragg, Bob Geldof, Peter Gabriel echo this.

True, which of course is why it's just as important for them to have access to the UK as for UK artists to have access to Europe, to the reciprocal benefit pf both.

[french frank]

The EU doesn't really care about culture, otherwise it would spend more than £1 a head on its culture sub programme.

Not really fair, since obviously culture and the arts were never central to the motivation of the EU: they were simply the 'collateral' beneficiaries.

But where does your figure come from? The EUYO gets €600,000 which is more than a euro per head (assuming by 'per head' you meant per citizen).

[teamsaint]

Not really fair, since obviously culture and the arts were never central to the motivation of the EU: they were simply the 'collateral' beneficiaries.

But where does your figure come from? The EUYO gets €600,000 which is more than a euro per head (assuming by 'per head' you meant per citizen).

See my post earlier in the day today for the figures. The Culture Sub Programme is going up to about €600m, which is just over £1 PPPA.
i don’t see why it isn’t fair though. As you say, it wasn’t / isn’t the point of the EU, so it doesn’t ( have to )care . “It” cares about the SM, the CAP, and so on.So I think we agree there ?

[french frank]

See my post earlier in the day today for the figures. The Culture Sub Programme is going up to about €600m, which is just over £1 PPPA.
i don’t see why it isn’t fair though. As you say, it wasn’t / isn’t the point of the EU, so it doesn’t ( have to )care . “It” cares about the SM, the CAP, and so on.So I think we agree there ?

Yes, we agree there . I meant it's not fair to suggest that the EU ought to spend more (how much more?). Like suggesting the NHS should provide everyone with a cat. The EU is also spending on educational projects (I read about the coding activities/programming literacy, just finishing, available to all - it may not cost the EU anything at all, I don't know, but it the enabling, facilitating which is valuable). I wonder how much just doesn't get publicised in the UK.

Did I make a mistake by a factor of about, ooh, 100 million in my maths earlier????

[MrGongGong]

I haven't made anything up. It's all true.

I haven't any respect for anyone who says UK orchestras can't gig in the EU in great numbers, post Brexit. It's arrant nonsense to say it's impossible.

I'm not telling people what to do. I'm saying it will be possible to continue with a high level of activity post Brexit. I suppose what I will tell people to do is quit being negative and saying it's impossible when it's not.

Yeah right
it's all true
isn't it
because you know better than those people who actually do this




We all know you enjoy making stuff up and pretending to support things to create an "interesting debate" so carry on with the made up nonsense if you like

[MrGongGong]

There are lists. easy enough to find online.

Really ?
Care to give us a link to the list of those actually involved in these fields who think its a good idea ?

As I probably said before since this whole thing started i've been working with multiple Universities, Orchestras, Ensembles of all types and haven't met ONE musician of academic who is in favour. But please do prove me wrong.

[teamsaint]

Yes, we agree there . I meant it's not fair to suggest that the EU ought to spend more (how much more?). Like suggesting the NHS should provide everyone with a cat. The EU is also spending on educational projects (I read about the coding activities/programming literacy, just finishing, available to all - it may not cost the EU anything at all, I don't know, but it the enabling, facilitating which is valuable). I wonder how much just doesn't get publicised in the UK.

Did I make a mistake by a factor of about, ooh, 100 million in my maths earlier????

Yep slight arithmetical slip there. We’ve all done it !!
TBF there is a related Media Sub-programme. It seems to subsidise television production, and gets three times the funding of the Culture sub- prog.
Yes I do take your point about that element of unfairness about expectations, but it seems relevant in the context of MBs speech to the HoL.

[teamsaint]

Really ?
Care to give us a link to the list of those actually involved in these fields who think its a good idea ?

As I probably said before since this whole thing started i've been working with multiple Universities, Orchestras, Ensembles of all types and haven't met ONE musician of academic who is in favour. But please do prove me wrong.

Yes really .You can find them if you are that keen. I did. Certainly lists of scientists, and one of artists.I don’t recall finding one of musicians.but I didn’t look that hard.
Anyway, I’m not in the business really of proving people “wrong. “ That seems to me that is quite a big part of the problems we are undergoing.
And you ignored the rest of my post, which was integral to the point.