Arts in the UK post-Brexit

[french frank]

It would be wrong to imply that Leavers don't care about the arts and Remainers and the EU are the champions of the arts.

It's not about 'Leavers' v 'Remainers' now: it's about the Brexiteers who are pressuring the government, the ERG and the DUP, for example. Their agenda does not include the arts, as far as I can see.

I'd have to disagree with your saying it was 'hysterical' and 'silly' (epithets which are dismissive without being well argued, or indeed argued at all): the content seemed to me to be well argued and well referenced. Does it matter who gave the speech and to whom?

One could repeat your own point by saying 'as he's taking an anti-Brexit stance, that's all that matters to some people' … [It touches you, my lord, as much as me, Richard III, Ac I, sc 3)

[Beef Oven!]

It's not about 'Leavers' v 'Remainers' now: it's about the Brexiteers who are pressuring the government, the ERG and the DUP, for example. Their agenda does not include the arts, as far as I can see.

I'd have to disagree with your saying it was 'hysterical' and 'silly' (epithets which are dismissive without being well argued, or indeed argued at all): the content seemed to me to be well argued and well referenced. Does it matter who gave the speech and to whom?

One could repeat your own point by saying 'as he's taking an anti-Brexit stance, that's all that matters to some people' … [It touches you, my lord, as much as me, Richard III, Ac I, sc 3)

I think you are lowering your standards. For example, he says that our orchestras made 96 trips to 26 EU countries and it's impossible to imagine that post Brexit. That is not 'well argued' or 'well referenced'. Plus it's wrong.

He says that minorities have been proved right in the face of majorities in the past, Therefore the minority 48% that voted to remain will be proved right - some sort of historical determinism! You think that's 'well argued'?

What about the composer that must rush off to Europe at the drop of a hat. Lord Bragg says that will take weeeeks after Brexit. Really? In 1975 with no 'freedom of movement' my sister and I got on a train and went to France. Then Belgium, back to France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and Yugoslavia (mainly Slovenia, Serbia and Croatia). No visas, no notice, just a passport that we were asked to produce at every boarder and on every train. It's utter balderdash that even without a deal there will be any problems for this composer. It's just project fear and you think it's 'well argued and referenced'. And powerful too. !!!!!

[Bryn]

. . . In 1975 with no 'freedom of movement' my sister and I got on a train and went to France. Then Belgium, back to France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and Yugoslavia (mainly Slovenia, Serbia and Croatia). No visas, no notice, just a passport that we were asked to produce at every boarder and on every train. It's utter balderdash that even without a deal there will be any problems for this composer. It's just project fear and you think it's 'well argued and referenced'. And powerful too. !!!!!

Did not freedom of movement become part and parcel of membership of the EEC in 1957? In 1975, the U.K. was a member of the EEC. QED.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/free-movement-europe-past-and-present

Oh, and what remunerative work were you and your sister doing in the non-EEC countries you visited that year?

[Beef Oven!]

Did notFreedom of movement become part and parcel of membership of the EEC in 1957? In 1975, the U.K. was a member of the EEC. QED.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...st-and-present

I thought someone might make this enquiry.

We also did the same in 1973 (but with my mum and dad), 1970 (plus my brother), 1968 and other times in the 1960s. My first appearance in continental Europe was in 1963, also by train from London to Venice.

I'm surprised that people like you and ff who are normally admirably fasidious, readily accept the idea that we were constricted before the EU and sensible travel will be impossible once we have exited the EU.

And will the former Yugoslavia countries be more travel-restrictive to us now that they are in the EU rather than within the control of the USSR? That's a frightening EU if that's the case.

[ahinton]

Exactly!

But, as Bryn correctly points out, he was/is not, as you allege, "unelected".

[french frank]

I think you are lowering your standards. For example, he says that our orchestras made 96 trips to 26 EU countries and it's impossible to imagine that post Brexit. That is not 'well argued' or 'well referenced'. Plus it's wrong.

?? He references the ABO: "Europe is the most toured-to continent, with orchestras reporting 96 visits to 26 different European countries." Of course he may be wrong in saying it's 'impossible to imagine that post Brexit' in that you may be able to imagine it very easily. But he is probably generalising about people who have experience of touring with orchestras.

He says that minorities have been proved right in the face of majorities in the past, Therefore the minority 48% that voted to remain will be proved right - some sort of historical determinism! You think that's 'well argued'?

I cannot see where he says that because his quoted minorities were right in the past, therefore the 48% will be proved to be right; his argument is that the fact of their being a minority does not make them 'wrong', as the 'will of the people' supporters would have it.

What about the composer that must rush off to Europe at the drop of a hat. Lord Bragg says that will take weeeeks after Brexit. Really? In 1975 with no 'freedom of movement' my sister and I got on a train and went to France. Then Belgium, back to France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and Yugoslavia (mainly Slovenia, Serbia and Croatia). No visas, no notice, just a passport that we were asked to produce at every boarder and on every train. It's utter balderdash that even without a deal there will be any problems for this composer.

You don't mention what paid work you and your sister were travelling to carry out.

It's just project fear and you think it's 'well argued and referenced'. And powerful too. !!!!!

I do wonder how many Brexit-inclined people immediately declare all arguments which foresee difficultieis ahead are 'Project Fear'. [/QUOTE]

I apologise for a slight delay in replying, but I did find that 10 linked references in Bragg's piece where all correctly quoted and mainly from reputable sources (though one was from BBC News ). So I stick with my initial impression which I think was correct.

[oddoneout]

I think you are lowering your standards. For example, he says that our orchestras made 96 trips to 26 EU countries and it's impossible to imagine that post Brexit. That is not 'well argued' or 'well referenced'. Plus it's wrong.

He says that minorities have been proved right in the face of majorities in the past, Therefore the minority 48% that voted to remain will be proved right - some sort of historical determinism! You think that's 'well argued'?

What about the composer that must rush off to Europe at the drop of a hat. Lord Bragg says that will take weeeeks after Brexit. Really? In 1975 with no 'freedom of movement' my sister and I got on a train and went to France. Then Belgium, back to France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and Yugoslavia (mainly Slovenia, Serbia and Croatia). No visas, no notice, just a passport that we were asked to produce at every boarder and on every train. It's utter balderdash that even without a deal there will be any problems for this composer. It's just project fear and you think it's 'well argued and referenced'. And powerful too. !!!!!

There are aspects of Lord Bragg's speech which I feel are less than helpful, but I'm assuming they are the result of his concern about the subject - emotion perhaps leading to exaggeration. However( excuse me while I hop over to the other side of the fence....) the fact that something was possible in 1975 does not automatically mean that it is possible now. Again it comes back to the problem of uncertainty, lack of information, no indication as to the mechanisms of the new order, not helped by lack of confidence in the capabilities, let alone the good intentions, of the current administration.

[Beef Oven!]

?? He references the ABO: "Europe is the most toured-to continent, with orchestras reporting 96 visits to 26 different European countries." Of course he may be wrong in saying it's 'impossible to imagine that post Brexit' in that you may be able to imagine it very easily. But he is probably generalising about people who have experience of touring with orchestras.

I cannot see where he says that because his quoted minorities were right in the past, therefore the 48% will be proved to be right; his argument is that the fact of their being a minority does not make them 'wrong', as the 'will of the people' supporters would have it.

You don't mention what paid work you and your sister were travelling to carry out.

I do wonder how many Brexit-inclined people immediately declare all arguments which foresee difficultieis ahead are 'Project Fear'.

I apologise for a slight delay in replying, but I did find that 10 linked references in Bragg's piece where all correctly quoted and mainly from reputable sources (though one was from BBC News ). So I stick with my initial impression which I think was correct.

[/QUOTE]
Aren't you worried that all those correct and reputable references lead to such a terrible speech?



In 1982 the travel was for paid work as an EFL teacher and I have no recollection whatsoever of going to Sicily with anything other than my passport. My cousin who worked in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Austria from Italy, was a caretaker/handyman from the early 70s (still is in Sweden) Another cousin was an operational director in France and now Portugal, an uncle was a managing director in France (from Italy). There are quite a few others in my family too that have worked across Europe, beginning before the 4 freedoms. . The fact is people, goods and services have always moved freely around Europe. But it does not suite you to accept that.

Part of me hopes that it is as difficult as you make out because I can see a lucrative business opportunity as a 'know-how' consultant for all the great creative minds who are stumped about practical things like going abroad.

[MrGongGong]

Many of us Brexiters do give damn, and many Remainers and politicians don't give two hoots about the arts. I don't think the arts is much of a priority for the EU anyway.

It would be wrong to imply that Leavers don't care about the arts and Remainers and the EU are the champions of the arts.

That Guardian piece is a summary of the unelected Lord Bragg's recent speech to other lords.

The speech is rather hysterical with reference to slavery and the contention that minority factions have been proved right, visa a visa majority factions down the years on all positive social developments. But I suppose that so long as he's taking an anti-Brexit stance, that's all that matters to some people.

First they came for the manufacturing industry, but I'm not a manufacturer, then they came for the arts...... lovely stuff from the unelected Lord Bragg!

A very silly speech that any self-respecting Remainer should distance themselves from.

I think what you said in the second part of this is spot on

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?16387-Arts-in-the-UK-post-Brexit&p=701753#post701753

So it's YOU and the ghost of Cheggers and erm......

[Beef Oven!]

There are aspects of Lord Bragg's speech which I feel are less than helpful, but I'm assuming they are the result of his concern about the subject - emotion perhaps leading to exaggeration. However( excuse me while I hop over to the other side of the fence....) the fact that something was possible in 1975 does not automatically mean that it is possible now. Again it comes back to the problem of uncertainty, lack of information, no indication as to the mechanisms of the new order, not helped by lack of confidence in the capabilities, let alone the good intentions, of the current administration.

Yes, it comes down to uncertainty. And what is of vital importance is our response to that uncertainty. We can either be positive and think in terms of what we think will be possible, and try to reassure people (especially the EU non-UK people in our communities), or we can be negative. So far, the doom merchants have been proved wrong about economic growth and jobs and employment (today we had news that unemployment has improved even further). I suppose there's a few positions in between, but essentially, I would say it's in no-ones interest to be negative.

[MrGongGong]

I think you are lowering your standards. For example, he says that our orchestras made 96 trips to 26 EU countries and it's impossible to imagine that post Brexit. That is not 'well argued' or 'well referenced'. Plus it's wrong.

He says that minorities have been proved right in the face of majorities in the past, Therefore the minority 48% that voted to remain will be proved right - some sort of historical determinism! You think that's 'well argued'?

What about the composer that must rush off to Europe at the drop of a hat. Lord Bragg says that will take weeeeks after Brexit. Really? In 1975 with no 'freedom of movement' my sister and I got on a train and went to France. Then Belgium, back to France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and Yugoslavia (mainly Slovenia, Serbia and Croatia). No visas, no notice, just a passport that we were asked to produce at every boarder and on every train. It's utter balderdash that even without a deal there will be any problems for this composer. It's just project fear and you think it's 'well argued and referenced'. And powerful too. !!!!!

I'm sure the folks involved in orchestral management in the UK would love to have the benefit of your infinite wisdom and expertise.
Or will they simply realise that you have no idea at all about any of this and how it relates to culture ?
But never mind maybe you and your "sister" (real or imaginary, who knows ?) would like to ride into town and solve all of our problems ?

I call BS on your nonsense

PS; I used to live in Totnes but now i know that Narnia isn't REAL

[Beef Oven!]

I'm sure the folks involved in orchestral management in the UK would love to have the benefit of your infinite wisdom and expertise.
Or will they simply realise that you have no idea at all about any of this and how it relates to culture ?
But never mind maybe you and your "sister" (real or imaginary, who knows ?) would like to ride into town and solve all of our problems ?

I call BS on your nonsense

PS; I used to live in Totnes but now i know that Narnia isn't REAL

All real MrGG. Sister, brother, cousins, uncles, mum. We are all either 50% continental Europeans by blood or 100%. And we have all travelled extensively in Europe and worked there too.

I am very happy to offer my services to orchestral managers if they experience problems post Brexit. Easy money actually. Done it before in the nineties with engineers and subsequently with other professional disciplines. It's the actual music and culture that I would bow to their and your greater expertise. Life works better when we all stick to the things we do best and work as a team, so I'll stay away from that side of the business.

And in our twenties my sister and I got a little rowing boat in the sea near the Trieste coast and ended up rowing along the coast to a Yugoslavian resort and had landed with now passports and had a marvellous sea food lunch and couple of beers for half the price that we were paying in Italy. So we went back a few times, but by bus because the rowing boat thing was an incredibly dangerous thing to do. If I had an imaginary female in my life, I wouldn't make it a sister, if you know what I mean.

[MrGongGong]

All real MrGG. Sister, brother, cousins, uncles. We are all either 50% continental Europeans by blood or 100%. And we have all travelled extensively in Europe and worked there too.

I am very happy to offer my services to orchestral managers if they experience problems post Brexit. Easy money actually. Done it before in the nineties with engineers and subsequently with other professional disciplines. It's the actual music and culture that I would bow to their and your greater expertise. Life works better when we all stick to the things we do best and work as a team, so I'll stay away from that side of the business.

And in our twenties my sister and I got a little rowing boat in the sea near the Trieste coast and ended up rowing along the coast to a Yugoslavian resort and had landed with now passports and had a marvellous sea food lunch and couple of beers for half the price that we were paying in Italy. So we went back a few times, but by bus because the rowing boat thing was an incredibly dangerous thing to do. If I had an imaginary female in my life, I wouldn't make it a sister, if you know what I mean.

https://www.worldoftales.com/fairy_tales.html

[Beef Oven!]

https://www.worldoftales.com/fairy_tales.html

You honestly think I'm making this up?

You really don't know that it is possible to do all those things.

Lots of people like my family really did all these things, and on a shoestring.

I fear for the future of the UK if you are in any way representative - such a negative and unambitious mindset. So much so that you look at what I've posted and think "nah, impossible. He's lying. Making it up".

Well it was all so very easy and I can see no reason why any post Brexit obstacles can't be gotten over.

[MrGongGong]

You honestly think I'm making this up?

You really don't know that it is possible to do all those things.

Lots of people like my family really did all these things, and on a shoestring.

I fear for the future of the UK if you are in any way representative - such a negative and unambitious mindset. So much so that you look at what I've posted and think "nah, impossible. He's lying. Making it up".

Well it was all so very easy and I can see no reason why any post Brexit obstacles can't be gotten over.

Well,every time anyone with any experience says something you disagree with you dismiss it as nonsene and parrot on the script you have learn't so well

The fact that you can't see any reason for something when ALL the people who actually know about it say the opposite might tell you something ?
But maybe it really is all about you and there is nothing to learn from those with expertise ?