Are traditions important?

[Dave2002]

We have had a couple of threads recently about standing up, and "respect", and one reason given for standing is "tradition". However, is that really a reason? In the UK we have a tradition of having some holidays or festivities around December - which normally we call Christmas, though in other countries they may call it something like "winter holiday" or different religious groups may have slightly different names and different events, but essentially festivities in winter have been going on for centuries - even millennia. Irrespective of any "traditional" justification for winter festivities, historically they may have served a useful purpose for societies. People may have looked after each other during the cold months, and kept spirits up etc., so any excuse not to give up and simply "hibernate" might have been a good thing.

Sometimes though surely traditions are there to be broken - just like rules. Traditions may outserve their original purpose, and just using tradition as a reason for doing something doesn't make sense.

Some "traditions" may never have existed though - such as droit du seigneur - https://www.britannica.com/topic/droit-du-seigneur
That would be completely out of order these days. However, although it may have been an imagination - at least we have Mozart's Marriage of Figaro based (perhaps loosely) on it, with another reference in Don Giovanni.

[french frank]

just using tradition as a reason for doing something doesn't make sense.

Traditions shouldn't be observed BECAUSE they're traditions, but because for those who want to observe them, they have a function. Democracy means people should be free to ignore them, or criticise them; it doesn't follow that people should necessarily be free to abolish them because they disagree with them, or have no time for them personally.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Traditions shouldn't be observed BECAUSE they're traditions, but because for those who want to observe them, they have a function. Democracy means people should be free to ignore them, or criticise them; it doesn't follow that people should necessarily be free to abolish them because they disagree with them, or have no time for them personally.

[ahinton]

"Tradition is a plaster mask taken from life, which in the course of many years and, after passing through the hands of innumerable artisans, leaves its resemblance to the original largely a matter of imagination."

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"Music as an art, our so-called occidental music, is hardly four hundred years old; its state is one of development, perhaps the very first stage of a development beyond present conception, and we—we talk of "classics" and "hallowed traditions"! And we have talked of them for a long time!

We have formulated rules, stated principles, laid down laws; we apply laws made for maturity to a child that knows nothing of responsibility!"

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"Creative power may be the more readily recognized the more it shakes itself loose from tradition. But an intentional avoidance of the rules cannot masquerade as creative power, still less engender it."


OK, so who said these things, then? The only clue that I'll offer right now is that all three statements originate in the same source...

[Tapiola]

"Tradition is a plaster mask taken from life, which in the course of many years and, after passing through the hands of innumerable artisans, leaves its resemblance to the original largely a matter of imagination."

__________________________________

"Music as an art, our so-called occidental music, is hardly four hundred years old; its state is one of development, perhaps the very first stage of a development beyond present conception, and we—we talk of "classics" and "hallowed traditions"! And we have talked of them for a long time!

We have formulated rules, stated principles, laid down laws; we apply laws made for maturity to a child that knows nothing of responsibility!"

__________________________________

"Creative power may be the more readily recognized the more it shakes itself loose from tradition. But an intentional avoidance of the rules cannot masquerade as creative power, still less engender it."


OK, so who said these things, then? The only clue that I'll offer right now is that all three statements originate in the same source...

Sounds a bit Busoni-an to me...? Perhaps?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sounds a bit Busoni-an to me...? Perhaps?

I thought that - Towards a New Aesthetic for Music, perhaps, Taps?

[Tapiola]

I thought that - Towards a New Aesthetic for Music, perhaps?

Yup. The bit about the child that knows nothing of responsibility rings a bell.

[jean]

[Dave2002]

Maybe Schoenberg. I know where the quotes might come from - "Contemporary Composers on Contemporary Music" - Schwarz and Childs - though maybe the composers are (or were until recently) still alive. Other possibles - Boulez?

[ahinton]

I thought that - Towards a New Aesthetic for Music, perhaps, Taps?

Spot on, Signor!

[Richard Barrett]

Sometimes though surely traditions are there to be broken - just like rules. Traditions may outserve their original purpose, and just using tradition as a reason for doing something doesn't make sense.

When I saw your thread title I immediately thought of musical traditions, where indeed this observation holds.

But I think your point about traditions never having existed is very important - for example the "tradition" that the British royal family is supposed to be an example of sobriety and moral rectitude to the nation is a very recent concept, maybe no more than a last-ditch attempt to accord them any relevance at all, although to be sure it's been quite successful. Most "traditions" will for obvious reasons be closely associated with a "conservative" point of view so that one's attitude towards them is probably inseparable from one's attitudes towards sociopolitical issues in general, if one is to be consistent in one's thinking.

[Beef Oven!]

Traditions are desperately important. How else can developments be forged?

[vinteuil]

Traditions are desperately important. How else can developments be forged?

... not forgetting how easy it is to forge traditions.

[Richard Barrett]

Traditions are desperately important. How else can developments be forged?

As Dave says they can often outlive their importance. The issue is to know when that's happened. (Or to make it happen.)

[BBMmk2]

There are traditions that I have a lot of respect for, and which I observe. I cannot feel totally justified if I don't!