What is a vegetarian?

[Serial_Apologist]

#11 jean, that is very strange ... the leather she is apparently happy to wear involved the death of a cow - it would have died anyway to provide us with steaks, but none the less, you cant get leather without killing cows. Whereas the honey she wont eat is produced by bees which are farmed for the purpose. True there are still wild bees, but they can only produce a small fraction of the honey we require.

And #12. pianorak, you dont even have to kill one cow specially to provide the necessary tallow, you could get all the tallow you want as a by-product from the local slaughterhouse.

I think that for many vegetarians the death of the animal is secondary to its consumption as food or clothing - or consuming animal products in general.

[jean]

#11 jean, that is very strange ... the leather she is apparently happy to wear involved the death of a cow...

She doesn't claim consistency! She's not particularly bothered about the banknotes, either.

The point about modern intensively reared dairy cows, surely, is that not only are they selectively bred to produce huge quantities of milk (at the cost of unnaturally frequent pregnancies and greatly shorter lives) but male calves are killed at birth (as an unwanted byproduct) and female calves removed from their mothers unnaturally early in order to maximise the availability of milk for human consumption. It's pretty appalling from an animal welfare point of view. I took it that this is what jean was referring to....

It was.

[oddoneout]

“We can confirm that the polymer pellet from which the base substrate is made contains a trace of a substance known as tallow,” said a BoE spokeswoman.

This appeared in a FT article about the matter which may provide some explanation. Since the majority of people reject the concept of homeopathy I don't see there should really be a problem in terms of tallow contamination of the actual banknote. As noted by others every day use will see undesirable matter deposited on said items.

The point about modern intensively reared dairy cows, surely, is that not only are they selectively bred to produce huge quantities of milk (at the cost of unnaturally frequent pregnancies and greatly shorter lives) but male calves are killed at birth (as an unwanted byproduct) and female calves removed from their mothers unnaturally early in order to maximise the availability of milk for human consumption. It's pretty appalling from an animal welfare point of view. I took it that this is what jean was referring to.... Extensively reared beef cattle have a better time of it.

This is something which many so-called vegetarians are in ignorance of - or sometimes I suspect denial. The fact that we don't eat veal in this country adds to the problem as does the anti-hunt situation(the hunt kennels used to take the male calves in many areas).

[Richard Tarleton]

#13, Richard, rather than being killed at birth, arent male cows raised for a short time, then slaughtered for veal? But I agree, its a grim business all round, the price we seem happy to pay for cheap dairy products.

The majority are killed at birth. Only a tiny proportion are kept for veal (itself a pretty grm business) - there isn't that much of a market for it, at least in the UK. All a bit technical...

[jean]

We produce what's variously spelled rose, rosy or rosey veal in this country. not so grim as the very young white veal that comes from the continent.

[ahinton]

If no living creatures were ever killed for the purpose of creating items of food, clothing or other human consumption, what would instead happen to those creatures? Obviously, none would any longer be bred for such purposes, but...

And what of animal based fertilisers used in the production of items for human consumption that do not directly depend upon the animals themselves? For example, should a strict vegan decline to use horse manure as a fertiliser for soil on which he/she grows fruit, vegetables and the like? How far does definitive veganism go?

[jean]

should a strict vegan decline to use horse manure as a fertiliser for soil on which he/she grows fruit, vegetables and the like?

Making use of a product specifically rejected by the animal that produced it might not count as exploitation.

[Serial_Apologist]

If no living creatures were ever killed for the purpose of creating items of food, clothing or other human consumption, what would instead happen to those creatures? Obviously, none would any longer be bred for such purposes, but...

And what of animal based fertilisers used in the production of items for human consumption that do not directly depend upon the animals themselves? For example, should a strict vegan decline to use horse manure as a fertiliser for soil on which he/she grows fruit, vegetables and the like? How far does definitive veganism go?

Those creatures would presumably live until reaching a natural death.

As far as production of manure is concerned, as far as I understand (and my understanding is admitedly pretty defective) this is one of the arguments thrown at vegetarians and vegans; namely: what better product is there for fertilisation purposes that manure? The answer is that one would continue using animals as fertilisers (and of course other land management purposes) in the same way as sheep, goats etc.

Incidentally, in what does the abovementioned problem of not being able to use cattle over a certain age for leather production consist? Does the skin become unusable?

(Leather is so good at keeping feet warm at this time of year...)

[jean]

Those creatures would presumably live until reaching a natural death.

Most of them, though, wouldn't come into existence in the first place!

[Richard Tarleton]

Those creatures would presumably live until reaching a natural death.

They wouldn't have been bred in the first place, ergo wouldn't exist in the first place. We're looking at the current state of a process that goes back 10,000 years, to the start of the agricultural revolution. Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens" good on this.

[Beef Oven!]

Getting back to the original question, a vegetarian is someone who doesn't have meat in their dinner. Where you or I would have a lamb chop, they will have a nut-roast or quiche. Where it gets complicated is with sauces, potatoes and rice. You could easily serve something that you think doesn’t contain meat, but for example, the potatoes have been basted with the juice from the meat. Also, watch out for things like table mats that contain wood or cork, which are actually from trees and you may not realise it. Hot dogs are a no-no, even though they are not made from dogs - they can contain pork, which is from a pig - an animal.

[Serial_Apologist]

Most of them, though, wouldn't come into existence in the first place!

[Serial_Apologist]

They wouldn't have been bred in the first place, ergo wouldn't exist in the first place. We're looking at the current state of a process that goes back 10,000 years, to the start of the agricultural revolution. Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens" good on this.

I was thinking hypothetically in terms of were the world to "go vegetarian" tomorrow, what would happen to existing livestock.

[Serial_Apologist]

Also, watch out for things like table mats that contain wood or cork, which are actually from trees and you may not realise it. Hot dogs are a no-no, even though they are not made from dogs - they can contain pork, which is from a pig - an animal.

Ah, but you see, trees don't scream when you lop branches off of them, or cut them down. You may think they do, but that's just creaking.

[Richard Tarleton]

Getting back to the original question, a vegetarian is someone who doesn't have meat in their dinner. Where you or I would have a lamb chop, they will have a nut-roast or quiche.

I thought you were a fan of middle eastern cuisine, beef

Where it gets complicated is with sauces potatoes and rice. You could easily serve something that you think doesn’t contain meat, but for example, the potatoes have been basted with the juice from the meat. Also, watch out for things like table mats that contain wood or cork, which are actually from trees and you may not realise it.

I remember when I was about 12, having Sunday lunch with my grandparents who had spent much of their married life in India - also there were a high-caste Indian couple, business acquaintances of my grandfather, who were vegetarian. My grandmother had prepared roast lamb for us, something vegetarian for them. It was only looking back that I worked out what she should have done....but they'd lived there in the last years of the raj.....