Should we care about old "crimes"?

[french frank]

Exactly. These LibDems need to grow up PDQ. If they want to be in government - and they clearly love ensconcing their bottoms in ministerial limousines

How true! What I wouldn't give to be daily verbally attacked, accused, ridiculed, spied on, have my background investigated and publicised, my family life put under strain, to run the risk of going down in history as the man who finally scuppered the chance of political reform in order to ride around in a ministerial car ...

Yes, I do think that if misdeeds are brought to light at a later date, they have to be investigated and the punishment has to be what is appropriate to the circumstances.

On Hanningfield, and the Lords in general (as distinct from MPs), it's obviously a culture that has grown up. They reckon they work hard, in many cases put in long hours, so 'morally' they 'earn' a reasonable salary which they won't be paid. A lax expenses system allowed them to take advantage. They 'justify' their actions to themselves. Unfortunately for them, they're wrong and they have to take the rap (INTJ, me ).

[Dave2002]

Yes, I do think that if misdeeds are brought to light at a later date, they have to be investigated and the punishment has to be what is appropriate to the circumstances.

Agreed, but surely under normal circumstances for relatively minor "crimes" it's easier to use a procedural fix, such as "we do not have the resources to investigate this - matter closed", etc. Heaven knows, the police don't always respond to what are clearly significant crimes, so "wasting time" on things like this seems like luxury.

Seems to me that some journalists and politicians are determined to follow up cases like this one - supposedly in the public interest. I'm not in favour of apparently powerful people getting away with things, but a sense of proportion is needed at times surely.

Anyone remember George Brown - bless his heart. Tired and Emotional are words which spring to mind .... Many politicians have fallen over, but at least some of them had done things which were interesting!

[vinteuil]

Anyone remember George Brown - bless his heart. Tired and Emotional are words which spring to mind .... Many politicians have fallen over, but at least some of them had done things which were interesting!

'During his time, and subsequently, a widely circulated rumour had it that Brown had embarrassed himself while drunk at an official reception in South America.
Brown was said to have lumbered over to a tall, elegant vision in red, and requested the honour of the next dance, to be told,
"I will not dance with you for three reasons.
The first is that you are drunk.
The second is that the band is not playing a waltz, but the Peruvian national anthem.
The final reason is that I am the Cardinal Archbishop of Lima." '

[salymap]

It happened several years ago, & it's only come to light now because of the 'vengeance' memoirs of his ex(?) wife. If she felt strongly enough about it why didn't she say anything at the time?
Margaret Cook also seemed to be able to put up with Robin Cook's shortcomings, including (alleged) sexual inadequacy, for many years, until he 'dumped' her (rather unpleasantly, it has to be said), & then she couldn't wait to complain. It's all rather distasteful.


Actually, when I saw the thread title I thought it was going to be about George Davis.

Yes Flossie, that sort of thing is unpleasant. Some years ago when a wellknown musician died a member of his staff and a member of his family joined together to dish the dirt with no stone unturned. True or not, it was highly distasteful to many of his friends and admirers.

[french frank]

Agreed, but surely under normal circumstances for relatively minor "crimes" it's easier to use a procedural fix, such as "we do not have the resources to investigate this - matter closed", etc. Heaven knows, the police don't always respond to what are clearly significant crimes, so "wasting time" on things like this seems like luxury.

Seems to me that some journalists and politicians are determined to follow up cases like this one - supposedly in the public interest.

Unfortunately, the Huhne case is in the spotlight. The police took up the investigation at the request of an MP, Simon Danczuk . Quis custodiet ... ???

[Dave2002]

Unfortunately, the Huhne case is in the spotlight. The police took up the investigation at the request of an MP, Simon Danczuk . Quis custodiet ... ???

Talk about people in glass houses ....

[scottycelt]

Don't we all maybe expect a little too much of our politicians and expect them to be virtual saints?

I'm not condoning any wrong-doing merely pointing out that some of them can be as human as the rest of us.

I love that story about George Brown, vinteuil, even though I've heard it quite a few times before ...

[PatrickOD]

Don't we all maybe expect a little too much of our politicians and expect them to be virtual saints?

I'm not condoning any wrong-doing merely pointing out that some of them can be as human as the rest of us.

Ah yes, scotty. 'Lovable rogues'; 'regrettable but understandable'; 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

I reckon that it's because we are human that we need some rules to be applied across the board.

[scottycelt]

Ah yes, scotty. 'Lovable rogues'; 'regrettable but understandable'; 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

I reckon that it's because we are human that we need some rules to be applied across the board.

Of course we do, Patrick ... but don't you think there may be just a teeny-weeny bit of hypocrisy here at least on the issue of 'fiddling expenses' ?

However, I'm sure journalists (and most of the rest of us) have always been quite beyond reproach as far as that is concerned ...

[Lateralthinking1]

Those who seek to be lawmakers are natural lawbreakers. In order to make a law, you effectively have to break a previous law by overturning it. In my opinion, this is the key explanation to much of MPs' aberrant behaviour. It also explains a lot about human life in general. Lawbreaking rarely occurs in the absence of an egotistical belief in self-authority, even among graffiti yobs or speeding drivers.

Vicky Pryce had a very senior economist role in the Civil Service under Labour. Clearly, she felt comfortable in it. Now the Tories are to all intents and purposes in power, she resides outside the Service in a consultancy. That consultancy also has working for it economists who worked alongside her in the Service under Labour. I do have some inside knowledge here. One might be forgiven for thinking that politically she might not be a coalition fan.

Allegedly she is a Lib Dem. So too were the individuals who resigned because of opposition to the coalition and asked for Huhne's expenses to be reviewed. He's just been cleared. It is on the BBC website but has a low posting there. Interestingly, this all emerges just as one might think that it is murky Tory business. He's fallen out with Osborne and Baroness Warsi over AV, the nuclear stance is a little less than "isn't it fantastic". A wonderful smokescreen perhaps for left of centre manoeuvring.

I do think the past misdemeanours of MPs matter more than those of Joe Public when most politicians preach as if from the pulpit. However, I am as concerned about the lawfulness of any driver who accepts penalty points on behalf of another as I am of any driver who doesn't accept penalty points on his licence. Currently no one seems bothered by the former.

I would still like to know more about Cameron's methods of relaxation as a student, Hammond's interest, if any, in the Cayman Islands, Mitchell's interests in overseas development from a personal point of view, and why in just over a month as a Minister, Villiers took time out to attend Glastonbury, not that the latter was criminal in the legal sense.

As for Parliament in general, sadly it houses many who have committed crimes either literally or morally. I was struck by the true authority, the depth and the dignity of Obama in Westminster Hall this week. He also has an admirable wife. By contrast, ours seem like grey hairs, used car salesmen and barely grown public schoolboys.

And then there was the juvenile twitter from 63-year-old Tessa Jowell - ooo it's just like Beatlemania all over again. These things tend to have close links to a smoking behind the bike shed mentality. Anyone know what David Mills is up to these days?

[mangerton]

Of course we do, Patrick ... but don't you think there may be just a teeny-weeny bit of hypocrisy here at least on the issue of 'fiddling expenses' ? ...

scotty, yes, I see what you mean, but....... as board members probably know, I am a civil servant, though for how much longer in the current climate is anyone's guess. We now claim our expenses online. When doing so, we are greeted by a screen which says, in very blunt terms, "If you fiddle your exes, you will certainly be sacked, and you'll probably be prosecuted as well."

Fair enough. It's public money. But it should be exactly the same for MPs, who are making a damn sight more than your average civil servant.

[scottycelt]

scotty, yes, I see what you mean, but....... as board members probably know, I am a civil servant, though for how much longer in the current climate is anyone's guess. We now claim our expenses online. When doing so, we are greeted by a screen which says, in very blunt terms, "If you fiddle your exes, you will certainly be sacked, and you'll probably be prosecuted as well."

Fair enough. It's public money. But it should be exactly the same for MPs, who are making a damn sight more than your average civil servant.

I agree, mangerton ... those in authority should set an example to the rest of us, and it is difficult to have much sympathy with those who are caught fiddling in either the public or private sector.

It's just the mock-horror among those in the media that some politicians would ever stoop to such a dreadful thing as fiddling expenses that I find quite ridiculous and indeed almost comical.

[Lateralthinking1]

Mangerton - It depends what you mean by "average civil servant". I was one and you are right. It has been said that Ms Pryce (the surname following marriage has always been that of her first husband) earned considerably more than £100,000 pa. As for expenses, dear old Gus OD, Head of Everything, spent £19,000 of taxpayers money on an official car for three months of 2009. There are similar others.

[Mahlerei]

One might be more inclined to forgive transgressing MPs and peers if they didn't show such breathtaking arrogance when they're caught.

[mangerton]

Mangerton - It depends what you mean by "average civil servant". I was one and you are right.

yes, I've gathered that from some of your postings. I'm still there, so I have to be circumspect, but I'm in HMRC, band O, and of course there's no London weighting in the wilds of Dundee? I can say that like others on my grade and above I am now on a two year pay freeze.

You will realise that I am overjoyed to learn that Gus got his official car. Thanks for telling me. I'll sleep much more easily tonight for knowing that.

Note to host: Could we have an smiley, please?