Proving identity in the UK

[ahinton]

Our local record office requires proof of identity for anyone who hasn't visited in the last twelve months and the last time I went down I fell into that category. They refused to accept my passport. I asked why. "It doesn't show your address," was the reply. (Fortunately they accepted my old-style driving licence instead.)

That seems to be a classic example of the two-document requirement in order that the residential address can be "confirmed"; Richard's argument for a national ID card takes on all the more credibility, n'est-ce pas?

[Dave2002]

Surely only in instances when a single ID document is deemed insufficient? I'd have thought that a passport alone ought to suffice for most circumstances, but I suppose that it's cases when a second document that includes proof of address where the problem probably arises. This is where Richard's favouring of a national ID card makes sense, provided that it includes both a photo and address details. As it is, I rarely go anywhere without my passport.

Actually a passport, like my suggestion of having embedded micro chips, doesn't do everything that's required. It can be used to prove your identity, but doesn't have address details, which are often needed for some transactions. OTOH, photo id car licences do have the address, though it may be out of date if it's not updated - which is strictly speaking a legal requirement - but people don't always bother, hence car hire companies look for utility bills as well.

Another pet hate is the "tightening up" (haha) of bank security. Some banks have taken to getting very pedantic about people's names on cheques. There are perhaps many people who don't use their first given name, so if cheques are written out to them using the name they are usually called by, some banks now refuse to cash them. This even if the actual name really is one of their given names.

This is totally bonkers and OTT, and to add insult to injury, some banks actually suggest that people should change their name. As it happens, I know one person who did just that, and then sent the bill for the procedure to the bank for payment. They paid up!

The name issue is also now becoming more of an issue with other organisations, such as the NHS, and this can lead to odd phone calls.

NHS caller: "Can I speak to Helen?"
Person who picked up the phone .... "Sue, - someone from the NHS for you ..."
Sue - picking up the phone: "Hello"
NHS caller: "Is that Helen?"
Sue - "Yes, but that's my first name. I never use it. My second name is Susan. Everyone calls me Sue"

Officialdom, bureaucracy, mad world! Organisations trying to make things more secure and "better", and actually making things worse!

[Dave2002]

That seems to be a classic example of the two-document requirement in order that the residential address can be "confirmed"; Richard's argument for a national ID card takes on all the more credibility, n'est-ce pas?

Actually no - see my msg 17. Your identity is unlikely to change - though it might. For most people the general characteristics of their identity does not change, or does not change rapidly during their lifetime.

Residential addresses can change, possibly relatively frequently. One could have ID cards and make it a heinous offence for someone not to have an up to date address on their ID card, but that would either be unworkable or very much resisted.

[ahinton]

Actually no - see my msg 17. Your identity is unlikely to change - though it might. For most people the general characteristics of their identity does not change, or does not change rapidly during their lifetime.

Residential addresses can change, possibly relatively frequently. One could have ID cards and make it a heinous offence for someone not to have an up to date address on their ID card, but that would either be unworkable or very much resisted.

But if residential addresses change, however frequently, the onus remains on the person requiring to be identified to have up to date documents proving his/her current address, so without an ID card (which would have to be updated every time the address changed), some other form of documentation - council tax invoice or utility invoice - would have to be used if the person concerned had no drivers' licence and that can prove problematic when ID is required very shortly after the move because no such documentation would yet have been generated.

What would you suggest?

[french frank]

What would you suggest?

In my case (rather than Dave2002's), if all standard procedures fail, a bit of initiatiative may be required.

[Serial_Apologist]

In my case (rather than Dave2002's), if all standard procedures fail, a bit of initiatiative may be required.

Four syllables will certainly not suffice!

[Ed: Not even five - ff :-P]

[vinteuil]

... car hire is so unpredictable. We are now instructed to get from DVLA a code that will notify rental firms (if used within 48 hrs?) that we have no points against us; this we have regularly done since the edict went out from Caesar Augustus - and not once has a car rental firm asked to see it.

Last year a car hire firm in Aberdeen was hesitant to release our pre-booked car for us, because altho' I had a current new-style driving licence, a passport, any number of credit and debit cards - I had no 'proof' of residential address. Eventually we were able to assuage them with evidence on Mme v's phone that a John Lewis purchase had gone to the house where we claimed to live... Thereafter we have always gone equipped with numerous utility bills - and in all subsequent uses of car-hire - in France, Italy, Greece - have never been asked for them. Nor for the 'required' DVLA information....

[Serial_Apologist]

... car hire is so unpredictable. We are now instructed to get from DVLA a code that will notify rental firms (if used within 48 hrs?) that we have no points against us; this we have regularly done since the edict went out from Caesar Augustus - and not once has a car rental firm asked to see it.

Last year a car hire firm in Aberdeen was hesitant to release our pre-booked car for us, because altho' I had a current new-style driving licence, a passport, any number of credit and debit cards - I had no 'proof' of residential address. Eventually we were able to assuage them with evidence on Mme v's phone that a John Lewis purchase had gone to the house where we claimed to live... Thereafter we have always gone equipped with numerous utility bills - and in all subsequent uses of car-hire - in France, Italy, Greece - have never been asked for them. Nor for the 'required' DVLA information....

Rough on anyone who doesn't buy online, or use any of the utilities then! I suppose an annual MOT certificate or letter from the NHS would do...

[Dave2002]

But if residential addresses change, however frequently, the onus remains on the person requiring to be identified to have up to date documents proving his/her current address, so without an ID card (which would have to be updated every time the address changed), some other form of documentation - council tax invoice or utility invoice - would have to be used if the person concerned had no drivers' licence and that can prove problematic when ID is required very shortly after the move because no such documentation would yet have been generated.

What would you suggest?

I don't suggest anything - try blagging.

There are actually people who effectively have no residential address. I know of one who rented an apartment in Italy for a year, but some while later realised it was cheaper to use a self store, and book into a hotel whenever he returned to Italy. I"m not sure that giving the address of a self store would satisfy many people.

In his case he would probably be able to use his work office address, and probably he got his driving licence when he lived in a house in the UK, so could give his UK address as that of one of his relatives.

Given the nature of his work though, I expect most things are handled by his company. He is in a different country several times each month.

[oddoneout]

And the real fun begins when you have to start dealing with someone else's affairs....Taking on power of attorney for my mother 4 years ago was a real eye opener to the levels of ignorance and incompetence around issues of 'identity' and 'security' and 'data protection' by organisations which one would have assumed would know chapter and verse. The bigger the organisation and the more 'in the interests of client security/privacy/anti-fraud etc' procedures they had in place the worse the situation and the more likely to have loopholes or be just plain wrong.

[Dave2002]

When my father died, before my mother deteriorated mentally, when trying to deal with my father's affairs (and thinking forward for my mother...) an advisor at a well known building society advised "her" to use online banking. I pointed out that she'd didn't have a computer, and wouldn't know how to use one, but he kinda "winked" and said - yes, but you do! He mentioned that many families do this, which I am sure is illegal, as it would require disclosure of passwords to a (perhaps trusted!) family member, who would not have legal authority to act unless Power Of Attorney had been obtained.

[oddoneout]

When my father died, before my mother deteriorated mentally, when trying to deal with my father's affairs (and thinking forward for my mother...) an advisor at a well known building society advised "her" to use online banking. I pointed out that she'd didn't have a computer, and wouldn't know how to use one, but he kinda "winked" and said - yes, but you do! He mentioned that many families do this, which I am sure is illegal, as it would require disclosure of passwords to a (perhaps trusted!) family member, who would not have legal authority to act unless Power Of Attorney had been obtained.

Well the families can set their own passwords if they are setting the account up so disclosure wouldn't be involved? A related manoeuvre is using PINs and cashcards, which I think can be legal under certain circumstances(for those providing care services?) but is often I suspect just done unofficially as a way of coping day to day with caring for relatives. I was fortunate enough to be able to find a clued up local building society in my home town who set up a joint account which I could then operate online - necessary as mother was hundreds of miles away - or in branch, and who were willing to help when other organisations made things difficult. They also provided certified copies of ID and other documents, free of charge, to help set up payment accounts with other organisations so I could pay bills online.

[Dave2002]

I didn't realise that joint accounts with parents was a possibility. Then there would be no problems re permissions, privacy etc., the assumption being that both parties had fully agreed when the account was opened, and understood all the possible consequences.

I assume that other families mentioned during my discussion with the building society adviser operate by the more mentally capable members of the family intercepting mail to obtain passwords etc., and they then proceed to run the accounts as if they are the named account holder. Perhaps if they run affairs "responsibly" there will be no problems later, when it might become obvious what has happened. Technically I think that process is illegal.

In my case I helped my mother to go to the building society offices from time to time, then recommended which accounts to open and/or close and how much to draw out, and what cheques and forms to sign, which she did, though it got more difficult later on. The building society assistants were very helpful.

We would have preferred to have Power of Attorney, but my mother refused to do that saying she could manage her own affairs. By the time she finally agreed she needed help, her doctor said that he could not agree to sign the PoA forms as her mental condition had deteriorated. She also could have had some financial benefits assistance, but she refused to accept any assistance until towards the very end of her life.

I don't think such occurrences are very unusual.

[Petrushka]

I didn't realise that joint accounts with parents was a possibility. Then there would be no problems re permissions, privacy etc., the assumption being that both parties had fully agreed when the account was opened, and understood all the possible consequences.

I assume that other families mentioned during my discussion with the building society adviser operate by the more mentally capable members of the family intercepting mail to obtain passwords etc., and they then proceed to run the accounts as if they are the named account holder. Perhaps if they run affairs "responsibly" there will be no problems later, when it might become obvious what has happened. Technically I think that process is illegal.

In my case I helped my mother to go to the building society offices from time to time, then recommended which accounts to open and/or close and how much to draw out, and what cheques and forms to sign, which she did, though it got more difficult later on. The building society assistants were very helpful.

We would have preferred to have Power of Attorney, but my mother refused to do that saying she could manage her own affairs. By the time she finally agreed she needed help, her doctor said that he could not agree to sign the PoA forms as her mental condition had deteriorated. She also could have had some financial benefits assistance, but she refused to accept any assistance until towards the very end of her life.

I don't think such occurrences are very unusual.

My younger brother had joint access (not a joint account) to our mother's account with the Nationwide when the building society left town and the nearest branch was 15 miles away. Once our mother was diagnosed with vascular dementia Power of Attorney was fortunately not necessary and on her death the Nationwide could not have been more helpful. They paid all money in the account to my brother. Fortunately, all of our family get on very well as the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

On the question of proof of identity I have occasionally had to use my old British Rail photocard (photo taken in 1986!) and, much to my surprise, it has proved acceptable.

[oddoneout]

I didn't realise that joint accounts with parents was a possibility. Then there would be no problems re permissions, privacy etc., the assumption being that both parties had fully agreed when the account was opened, and understood all the possible consequences.

Not sure if it's still possible or available across the board. Originally I had an attorney account with mum's own bank and then with the one local to me, but they subsequently both became joint accounts - possibly some financial regulatory requirement.
I fear that many folks are driven into a murky world of technically illegal actions either through ignorance or as a result of being unable to do it by 'above board ' means. I was faced with a member of staff in a branch of my mother's bank dismissing the solicitor certified power of attorney document as 'unacceptable, and having no authority' so what hope for those not so armed? That bank also twice changed my mother's details on the account and cheque book - marital status and surname - and when I took in documents to support my complaint just dismissed the matter. The account was eventually corrected but not the cheque book, so much for identity checks and anti-fraud measures!
For me it all highlighted the extent to which measures supposed to improve and protect security etc do the complete opposite, and why criminals are laughing all the way to the bank. In the meantime members of the public are confused and inconvenienced by inconsistencies, misinterpretations, and poor training.