Hi Fi Advice

[Tetrachord]

I've just bought these, after hearing them in a store because I got them $A1,000 cheaper online:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/bw_cm10_s2.htm

When I listened to them in the shop they were driven by the NAD 326 amplifier and it sounded OK. But I want something with a bit more power; the NAD 375 possibly. When I asked the dealer about this he wrote that this would do the job, BUT:

If you wanted to spoil yourself a NAD 165BEE/275BEE pre amp/power amp combo would
be fantastic. These would set you back $3100 with a good interconnect cable between the two.

What I'm asking is why would I need a pre-amp and what is the exact meaning of 'integrated amplifier'? All this is taking time, meanwhile my speakers are expending warranty and remaining idle.

[Dave2002]

A power amplifier simply takes one or more analogue input signals in a certain range, and amplifies them, so that the output signals can drive the speakers.

A pre-amp takes one or more low level analogue input signals and amplifies them to a level suitable for feeding into a power amp. Nowadays some pre-amps may also take digital inputs, and process them to a suitable analogue form for driving one or more power amps. Users who have no analogue source devices may use a digital DAC effectively as a "pre-amp".

Pre-amps may work with very low level signals, such as from a pickup cartridge, so need to have very low noise circuits. Also, since traditionally many of the input signals came from record sources (78s, LPs etc.) pre-amps modified the frequency response to provide an inverse of the transfer function used when the records were cut, to give an overall flat(ish) frequency response. The other significant point about pre-amps is that they can do switching between inputs, so you can connect a radio tuner, a tape deck, a record deck etc., and switch between them. This makes operation much more convenient. Another point, is that pre-amps can also be used to adjust or modify the input signals, to "enhance" the treble or bass response, for example, or also to put in very specific filtering - which can be useful for some purposes. Tone controls are often omitted on modern equipment, as it is thought that they colour the sound, and reduce the overall sound quality. Some pre-amps have switchable tone controls and filters, so that there is an (almost) straight through signal path if no modification of the input signal (tonal or filtering) is needed, thus avoiding any sound colouration due to passing the signals through filters and/or tone controls.

Finally, note that since releatively few people use 78s or LPs nowadays, pickup inputs are now quite rare, and moving coil cartridges which have very low outputs, may not even be catered for on (pre-) amps which do have pickup inputs.

Power amps, on the other hand, simply increase the power available to drive the speakers, since none of the possible input signals would be capable of doing so.

An integrated amp puts the functionality of a pre-amp and a power amp into one box. Some modern integrated amps may not provide all the inputs that some users need - such as movig coil cartridge inputs, and many don't have any cartridge inputs.

Pre-amps could be mono (which was more common in the days of records - before stereo LPs or tapes) or stereo, or possibly multi-channel or surround.
A stereo pre-amp would also be able to balance the signals between left and right channels.

Power amps could be mono, or stereo typically. Stereo anos are more convenienet, but some manufacturers suggest using a separate power amp for each output channel - useful for situations where high output powers are required.

It does not always follow (not quite sure why ...) that having more powerful amps wil give better results - but it does depend what you want. If there is a good match between the equipment you are using, then you might not feel the urge to use a high power amp.

I have one slightly unusual amp - a Temple Audio Bantam Gold, which uses some so-called "class T" technology internally. It has two modes of operation - one which is higher power, but with more distortion, and one which is lower power, but much lower distortion. I hardly ever use the high power mode, which is not to say that it isn't sometimes useful, but generally I prefer the low distortion setting over having sounds "belted out". For "normal" domstic listening, both modes are loud enough in our house.

Your dealer will be happy to sell you anything which gives him a good profit. He might also try to match you with equipment you'd like to have, but that's perhaps not his prime concern.

Splitting the functionaly of pre and power amps also gives dealer the opportunity to sell you other stuff, such as interconnect cables, which may have what another contributor here calls "woo" factors.
There are differences between interconnect cables, and some do sound better, but beware of being persuaded to hand over hundreds or thousands of dollars for relatively short cables. There are other "woo" traps - we can deal with those later, but avoid them unless you like throwing money away.

Do you go in with a sign which says to him DOLLARS (A?) in flashing lights on your forehead?

[Tetrachord]

Thanks very much. I'm processing what you wrote very slowly and carefully. In answer to your question, "No, I don't go in with any signs...he's a dealer in Melbourne and I've never met him; I bought the B&Ws online through him". I just answered one of their ads via email for a Sale on NAD amplifiers as I'd heard these in another shop three weeks earlier. He is giving me info on a range of equipment as and when I asked, but as I'm a neophyte I have to be doubly cautious and won't proceed unless certain. In the meantime, I can go and listen at an audio shop which has my speakers but they don't have a very large range in the showroom so that I can hear any differences. One important item is the CD player which I've not even yet considered. All I know is that last time I was in the audio shop and I listened on the speakers I've now purchased to different types of CD players I noticed a HUGE difference between them.

Cables is another issue, possibly, but I do have older 'jumbo' cable - that goldish coloured plastic type about half an inch thick. The last dealer said it should do the job OK, but it possibly needs new pins on the end as I only have these on one end and open wire on the other.

Now that I've started this I can see it's becoming very frustrating. Another thing is the maxim, "rubbish in/rubbish out". Much of which I do will be 'limited' by the actual recording quality of individual CDs. Some of those earlier digitals, like my beloved Brahms #4/VPO/Kleiber is one such 'victim'.

[Dave2002]

Now that I've started this I can see it's becoming very frustrating. Another thing is the maxim, "rubbish in/rubbish out". Much of which I do will be 'limited' by the actual recording quality of individual CDs. Some of those earlier digitals, like my beloved Brahms #4/VPO/Kleiber is one such 'victim'.

I agree about "rubbish in/rubbish out", but you want to be careful about what the "rubbish" is. Depending on the equipment used some seemingly poor recordings may actually come up rather well. In the days of LP I noted that some people's equipment did a better job with some recordings on some labels than others. I wasn't a great fan of Decca, including some recordings which reviewers said were very good. One day I heard some of those on equipment (may actually have included a Decca ffss arm and cartridge) of a friend at the time, and they sounded superb. Also, CBS recordings weren't supposed to sound good, but on some equipment - pro kit rather than domestic probably - they also sounded superb.

There are recordings which simply can't be rescued though.

Listen to kit in your nearby dealer/showroom by all means, but matching stuff up makes a difference. Years ago I wanted to buy an Arcam CD player, as I had been to a store and watched other people buy equipment. I noticed that when customers left the salesman always put a CD back into the Arcam player, which in that store clearly gave a much better sound - I could hear individual instruments.

However, I then tried to match speakers to this, so went to another cheaper store - and through listening to their equipment I came to the conclusion that all the speakers were colouring the sound more than the speakers I had at home, and still have, so in the end I bought a Marantz CD player instead - as that was the one component which seemed to be consistently good - and it "saved" me £100 or so. Possibly the Arcam CD player would have been better, but the particular store was unable to convince me that they had any amp+speaker combination which would really sound any good even if paired with a very good CD player. There's no point in coupling very good kit with some units which let the side down significantly.

The other thing is that it's quite different (usually) listening in a dealer's room than at home. I would like to have better kit, but matching things together can make a very significant difference. In the end you have to find something you like, and maybe then live with it. Good dealers will let you try things at home, but then you won't get the discounts you'll achieve from on-line stores. I'm not sure what price ranges you're looking in. Sounds a bit like mid-range to me, but I'm not familiar with the Australian scene. At the top end - money no object - it's possible to spend as much as a fairly decent car on hi-fi kit, but you won't find too many reviews of really high end kit. Names like Lyngdorf flash up - the average consumer has never heard of them, but they have heard of Yamaha, Rotel, Toshiba, Sony, and maybe NAD, Creek etc.

[umslopogaas]

Dave2002 has given a very detailed response and I've little to add. I would say, however, that if you are contemplating buying a piece of hifi equipment, try and have it demonstrated in your own home, where it will actually be used. I bought my Musical Fidelity Dual Mono integrated amp. on the strength of a demo in the dealer's show room, a very "hard" environment with no carpets, curtains or soft furnishings. When I set it up in my living room, which has all those "soft" items, it sounded completely different -not better or worse, just different. The speakers were also different of course, but I am sure the environment is very important in influencing the sound.

Better quality cables do make a difference, but beware: this is an area where you can be persuaded to spend a lot of money for a relatively small improvement in sound quality. I generally respect my local hifi dealer, because he clearly knows his stuff, but I have resisted his attempts to upgrade my cables any further than their current spec., I'm not convinced it would be money well spent.

IMHO, if you want to improve the system, the two key items are cartridge (if you are playing vinyl) and speakers. Every time I have upgraded those two items I have noticed a clear improvement. By comparison, spending lots more money on more expensive amplifiers or CD players will give rather smaller improvements. You will have to spend more money on an amp to get more power of course, but unless you have a huge listening room, even a relatively modestly powered amp should be adequate. However, it is advisable to get one where the maximum volume you require does not require maximum output, because amps tend to distort if you push them to their limits. My Musical Fidelity can make my ears bleed with the volume only half way to maximum, and I dont normally use it at more than a quarter of its potential.

[Tetrachord]

Thanks so much, and to Dave, for the excellent advice. Very comprehensive, but leaving me with a certain amount of dread. I only use CDs, but I'll also be plugging my computer into the amp to listen to U-Tube concerts etc., but don't expect that to be more than average quality sound (depending on whether it's HD broadcast, etc.). I'm going to sell my Kawai piano to help defray the costs of this, as I seldom open the piano these days except if I'm doing any kind of analysis for a presentation. That I can do on paper anyway.

The room/listening space is important and I didn't factor that into the equation. I have a large, open plan house (no doors in that area) with 9ft ceilings, carpet on floor and also porcelain tiles which are laid in the area 10 ft in front of the unit. That's something I just didn't even think about, but I have a brick wall of the house behind the speakers and the house is on a concrete floor, rather than timber.

Ok, I'll have to get onto it. Thanks again for the excellent input.

[richardfinegold]

I had suggested before that you might want to do some reading about audio and suggested a reference book for you, aimed at neophytes, so that you might have a clue when you shop, but you didn't seem to amenable to that suggestion.
Dave did a fine job explaining the difference between pre amps and power amps. You may recall that we tried to explain what a DAC is; many pre amps, integrated amps, and receivers now include built in DACs.
I would recommend getting an integrated amp or a receiver. You then won't have to pay for interconnects between the pre amp and power amp. No doubt your dealer would like to sell you interconnects.
B&W speakers tend to require more power than many other brands (in audiophile terms, they have 'low sensitivity'). I would recommend at least 80 watts/channel. I am not currently familiar with the NAD line up of amplification but if I have a slow workday I can browse their offerings and report later. What other amplifier brand are available in Australia ? You will have to help us out there
I just glanced at the NAD site and the 375 should work well for you

[Tetrachord]

I had suggested before that you might want to do some reading about audio and suggested a reference book for you, aimed at neophytes, so that you might have a clue when you shop, but you didn't seem to amenable to that suggestion.
Dave did a fine job explaining the difference between pre amps and power amps. You may recall that we tried to explain what a DAC is; many pre amps, integrated amps, and receivers now include built in DACs.
I would recommend getting an integrated amp or a receiver. You then won't have to pay for interconnects between the pre amp and power amp. No doubt your dealer would like to sell you interconnects.
B&W speakers tend to require more power than many other brands (in audiophile terms, they have 'low sensitivity'). I would recommend at least 80 watts/channel. I am not currently familiar with the NAD line up of amplification but if I have a slow workday I can browse their offerings and report later. What other amplifier brand are available in Australia ? You will have to help us out there
I just glanced at the NAD site and the 375 should work well for you

Yes, I do remember that reading suggestion but I don't have time because I've got a lecture on in 2 weeks about Figured Bass/Basso Continuo and am already way behind!!! (And a friend is driving 160km to come and hear it - no pressure!!)

There are, apart from the Densen mentioned some time back, Marantz, Roksan Candy, and Cambridge Audio - these seem to be the main brands that I've seen in the shops. This is the place I've been dealing with but there are, of course, others in Sydney:

http://klappav.com.au/collections/amplifiers

[umslopogaas]

I dont know anything about Densen, but the other three are all reputable brands. I have a Roksan K3 CD player and am very happy with it.

[Dave2002]

Tetrachord

If you register on the AoS (Art of Sound) forum, I'm sure there are people there who can give you all sorts of tips re kit. That's at http://theartofsound.net/forum/ and I think the site is currently clean (i.e. malware free). There are other hi-fi sites, such as hi-fi wigwam - http://www.hifiwigwam.com/ - you'll probably want the Forum.

Some people recommend using eBay or similar, and buying second hand pro equipment. The idea being to buy a £2000+ original price pro piece of gear for (say) under £500. That way you might not have to sell your piano!

Consumer products are probably good value in the lower-mid price ranges, but then laws of diminishing marginal returns start to kick in as the prices rise.

[richardfinegold]

Yes, I do remember that reading suggestion but I don't have time because I've got a lecture on in 2 weeks about Figured Bass/Basso Continuo and am already way behind!!! (And a friend is driving 160km to come and hear it - no pressure!!)

There are, apart from the Densen mentioned some time back, Marantz, Roksan Candy, and Cambridge Audio - these seem to be the main brands that I've seen in the shops. This is the place I've been dealing with but there are, of course, others in Sydney:

http://klappav.com.au/collections/amplifiers

Well, we are all kind of busy, but we make time for what we find important. you seem to have time to visit audio shops and spend money in a somewhat less than optimally informed manner. You are going to live with these purchases for a while, if not forever...I would spend some time to get it right.
Buying separate pre amps and power amps was more important in years past than currently. The problem as that the signals and power sources required for the two differing functions would interfere with each other and so separating them was seen as an advantage. Current manufacturing techniques have largely eliminated this. I currently use separates but have happily had integrated amps in years past. And you save the trouble and expense of not requiring a connecting cable.
The brands that you mention are all reputable. Marantz has acquired a bit of a black eye for poor customer support here in the states, but perhaps not Down Under, as you are closer to Japan than we are. Cambridge also has a bit of a rep for reliability issues, but not to serious.

[Dave2002]

If you want high power, this Roksan K3 at 150W into 8 ohms loads might fit the bill - http://www.whathifi.com/roksan/k3/review

[Tetrachord]

Tetrachord

If you register on the AoS (Art of Sound) forum, I'm sure there are people there who can give you all sorts of tips re kit. That's at http://theartofsound.net/forum/ and I think the site is currently clean (i.e. malware free). There are other hi-fi sites, such as hi-fi wigwam - http://www.hifiwigwam.com/ - you'll probably want the Forum.

Some people recommend using eBay or similar, and buying second hand pro equipment. The idea being to buy a £2000+ original price pro piece of gear for (say) under £500. That way you might not have to sell your piano!

Consumer products are probably good value in the lower-mid price ranges, but then laws of diminishing marginal returns start to kick in as the prices rise.

Yes, I've seen hi fi forums etc. but I specifically came here because you are all classical music lovers and I can't be sure what kind of music other equipment caters for. And, again, I haven't really had the time to learn the language of sound equipment and understand all the terminology. I find much of this technical stuff just goes over my head and have 'consumed' whole pages without comprehending what I've read.

[Tetrachord]

I dont know anything about Densen, but the other three are all reputable brands. I have a Roksan K3 CD player and am very happy with it.

Yes, that brand keeps cropping up; I'll check it out as soon as I've finished my research in the next couple of weeks. Thanks.