B&W CM10 S2 loudspeakers

[Tetrachord]

I listened to these speakers yesterday at the hifi dealer in Sydney and find now I can buy these as "demonstrators" from another dealer (online shopping) in another state for $A1500 less. What would be the pitfalls of buying a 'demonstrator' speaker unit - even one as good as these - with full manufacturer's 5 year warranty? Yes, they might have been poked or jacked up to high volumes in the 'demonstration' phase, but the advertising claims "refurbished", though the dealer told me that word was 'misleading'.

Any advice please.

[jayne lee wilson]

Ex-Dem or display models of any hifi component often sound better than brand new out-of-the-box simply because they've been run in - it's terrible trying out a component at home from new, you have to leave it running for ages to get any idea of how it will sound to live with - especially speakers, with physical interfaces needing to loosen up, move freely and breathe music at you. Years ago, I borrowed a battered old factory pair of Harbeth C7IIs and fell in love with them, but they only made them to-order, and when the new model arrived later it took a few weeks for them to really sing. At first they were sharp, bass-light, a bit fatiguing... Pity they came on December 23...not such a happy Christmas. (When I got the phone call to tell me of their imminent arrival ("nice new speakers for Christmas!") & the collection of the old dog-eareds, my heart really sank. I knew what to expect...)

Even if the CM10s need a service sooner than a new one, the saving should still be substantial. Ethically though, it seems a bit shameless to take advantage of a dealer's free demo & then buy at a discount elsewhere. That's one reason that specialist dealers have become so rare, I'm afraid... still, the moral and hifi choices are yours to make, but trust your ears & don't worry about ex-dem stuff in itself.

Most of my hifi is either 2ndhand or ex-dem, it's the best (and financially often the only) way to buy good kit (oh the thrill of racing through the classifieds each month when the mags arrived....)... And dealers are often very happy to loan display stuff out to you for a home trial (if you like it & the cosmetics are OK it's worth making an offer there & then...) but DO try to buy from the dealer who gives you the demo....

[richardfinegold]

Ex-Dem or display models of any hifi component often sound better than brand new out-of-the-box simply because they've been run in - it's terrible trying out a component at home from new, you have to leave it running for ages to get any idea of how it will sound to live with - especially speakers, with physical interfaces needing to loosen up, move freely and breathe music at you. Years ago, I borrowed a battered old factory pair of Harbeth C7IIs and fell in love with them, but they only made them to-order, and when the new model arrived later it took a few weeks for them to really sing. At first they were sharp, bass-light, a bit fatiguing... Pity they came on December 23...not such a happy Christmas. (When I got the phone call to tell me of their imminent arrival ("nice new speakers for Christmas!") & the collection of the old dog-eareds, my heart really sank. I knew what to expect...)

Even if the CM10s need a service sooner than a new one, the saving should still be substantial. Ethically though, it seems a bit shameless to take advantage of a dealer's free demo & then buy at a discount elsewhere. That's one reason that specialist dealers have become so rare, I'm afraid... still, the moral and hifi choices are yours to make, but trust your ears & don't worry about ex-dem stuff in itself.

Most of my hifi is either 2ndhand or ex-dem, it's the best (and financially often the only) way to buy good kit (oh the thrill of racing through the classifieds each month when the mags arrived....)... And dealers are often very happy to loan display stuff out to you for a home trial (if you like it & the cosmetics are OK it's worth making an offer there & then...) but DO try to buy from the dealer who gives you the demo....

Agree it's the last bit. I think it is terribly unfair to a bricks and mortar dealer who gives you a demo, possibly lets you audition something at home, and who will help with any post sale issues, to audition for you and then be undercut by an Internet dealer who provides none of those features. Also if you buy on the internet you need to be prepared for damage in shipping. I just sold a turntable and packaged it carefully only to have it crushed by the shipping company. I had insured it but United Parcel Service absurdly claimed the buyer had done this himself, although he clearly documented the damage with timed photos when he first received it. It took a letter from an Attorney (at least I got some return for paying my Son's Law School Tuition) for United Parcel Service to admit they were at fault and pay off. Reading Internet Forums shows that my experience is not atypical

[Tetrachord]

Ex-Dem or display models of any hifi component often sound better than brand new out-of-the-box simply because they've been run in - it's terrible trying out a component at home from new, you have to leave it running for ages to get any idea of how it will sound to live with - especially speakers, with physical interfaces needing to loosen up, move freely and breathe music at you. Years ago, I borrowed a battered old factory pair of Harbeth C7IIs and fell in love with them, but they only made them to-order, and when the new model arrived later it took a few weeks for them to really sing. At first they were sharp, bass-light, a bit fatiguing... Pity they came on December 23...not such a happy Christmas. (When I got the phone call to tell me of their imminent arrival ("nice new speakers for Christmas!") & the collection of the old dog-eareds, my heart really sank. I knew what to expect...)

Even if the CM10s need a service sooner than a new one, the saving should still be substantial. Ethically though, it seems a bit shameless to take advantage of a dealer's free demo & then buy at a discount elsewhere. That's one reason that specialist dealers have become so rare, I'm afraid... still, the moral and hifi choices are yours to make, but trust your ears & don't worry about ex-dem stuff in itself.

Most of my hifi is either 2ndhand or ex-dem, it's the best (and financially often the only) way to buy good kit (oh the thrill of racing through the classifieds each month when the mags arrived....)... And dealers are often very happy to loan display stuff out to you for a home trial (if you like it & the cosmetics are OK it's worth making an offer there & then...) but DO try to buy from the dealer who gives you the demo....

Excellent comments; thanks so much!! Re the dealer and his demo - I just couldn't afford the speakers there - brand new and way too expensive. But he'll be getting my business for the CD player and maybe the Amp and accessories, but they didn't have the more powerful NAD (356) in stock. What is one to do under these circumstances?

Thanks for brilliant advice.

@Richard; your comments about damage are disturbing. The expensive speakers will be coming from Melbourne to Sydney by freight. I'm unsure what to do regarding potential damage. I wonder how they got to the dealer in the first place? They must have been shipped too!!

Since writing this I've had a call from the dealer who said the "demos" have been sold but he'll sell me brand new ones for $1,000 discount!!

[Anastasius]

Regarding shipping...if your speakers are sent using the original and complete manufacturers packing then they should arrive OK. Unless they are so upmarket that the manufacturers have their own dedicated delivery vehicles and staff in which case I'd run a mile.

I recently sold my Thorens TD150 record deck but fortunately have my own well-equipped workshop and securely fitted the deck inside a custom-made plywood box. All anchored down, nothing to flop about inside and so pretty much bullet proof from a delivery perspective.

[richardfinegold]

Regarding shipping...if your speakers are sent using the original and complete manufacturers packing then they should arrive OK. Unless they are so upmarket that the manufacturers have their own dedicated delivery vehicles and staff in which case I'd run a mile.

I recently sold my Thorens TD150 record deck but fortunately have my own well-equipped workshop and securely fitted the deck inside a custom-made plywood box. All anchored down, nothing to flop about inside and so pretty much bullet proof from a delivery perspective.

My Clearaudio Concept mc table was placed back in it 's original packaging by myself exactly the way it arrived and then placed in an additional double box but UPS managed to destroy it anyway.
I have bought many second hand pieces of gear and most have arrived intact but there was one notable exception. I had bought a pair of floor standing Paradigm Speakers for my basement. They were described as "near mint" but the speaker binding posts on one speaker were hanging by a thread and flopping around. I couldn't repair it and the seller refused to acknowledge that it was an issue. They actually worked, so I dropped it and used the speakers for several years, but when it came time to sell them off I was truthful and up front about the issue and there were no takers.
There is always a risk with second hand items that are bought sight unseen and freight shipped

[Gordon]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with ex-demo equipment - at least you know it works!!

I'd concur with JLW above that with loudspeakers in particular, as well as vinyl cartridges, that a good run in is needed before they loosen up. My current pair which are now in their prime took a good few weeks to settle but I helped them along by leaving the amp on 24hrs with low level noise from a mis-tuned FM tuner. The noise helps to reduce the bedding in period depending on how tight the speakers are when they leave the factory. Even in a demo room the number of hours maybe less than ideal.

I still have the packaging of all my equipment in the loft - just in case. I learned my lesson when I swapped out my old style Quad electrostatics - I ended up delivering them personally to Kent to avoid the risk of damage!

As to loyalty to the people that give the demos etc vs internet suppliers I tend to the view that one should support good dealers even if it costs a bit more. Good HiFi is not really a commodity product and so we should not treat it as though it is. I have had very good support of the years with my Cyrus systems especially when the CD player set up was going through troubles. Fine now after a good refurb which the dealer helped with and did all the packing/transportation etc.

[richardfinegold]

Agree with Gordon about buying demos-usually no risk there, and I think most of my gear was purchased in that manner.
The "break in" phenomenon is a debatable concept. Many Neuroacoustic academics have suggested that what is really happening is that the listener is becoming accustomed to the sonic signature of the gear, which is not actually changing it's sound.

[jayne lee wilson]

OH, I've had some very strange experiences of burn-in... I don't imagine it was all autosuggestive.

Anyway, I wouldn't fret much about damage in transit. It happens, but rarely. Some packaging can be remarkable... When I got the ATC Power Amp (18 months old, one tiny mark, half price ) it arrived in a hefty wooden crate, the lid held down by 8 large screws, the inner box itself lined with thick foam, then the amp itself in a soft silky bag. It was quite a while before I even saw the thing, never mind getting the 30kg beast out of the box and onto the floor. Or into the rack... But that wasn't the end of it, oh no...
On the phone to pay, the lovely dealer explained, a little sheepishly, that he'd sent one somewhere else and one of the EI Transformers had come loose on the journey. So he said he'd like to wedge some brochures underneath them to hold them in place, then I would have to remove the amp's lid to get them out before plug-in.... so did I still want to go ahead then?

I did. It's still here 11 years later. (Without needing a service...)

[Beef Oven!]

I've been convinced by 'burn in' for over thirty years. I also believe in 'brain burn' too, where one's perceptions adjust to a new piece of kit. I'll spare you all the detail, but I've had significant experience of both phenomena - I swear by both.

[Tetrachord]

OH, I've had some very strange experiences of burn-in... I don't imagine it was all autosuggestive.

Anyway, I wouldn't fret much about damage in transit. It happens, but rarely. Some packaging can be remarkable... When I got the ATC Power Amp (18 months old, one tiny mark, half price ) it arrived in a hefty wooden crate, the lid held down by 8 large screws, the inner box itself lined with thick foam, then the amp itself in a soft silky bag. It was quite a while before I even saw the thing, never mind getting the 30kg beast out of the box and onto the floor. Or into the rack... But that wasn't the end of it, oh no...
On the phone to pay, the lovely dealer explained, a little sheepishly, that he'd sent one somewhere else and one of the EI Transformers had come loose on the journey. So he said he'd like to wedge some brochures underneath them to hold them in place, then I would have to remove the amp's lid to get them out before plug-in.... so did I still want to go ahead then?

I did. It's still here 11 years later. (Without needing a service...)

Needing a service? What do you mean by that and what does it entail? We had somebody service our ducted air-conditioning and it was turned on, the box opened outside and the grills checked in the ceilings. End of story!!

I've yet to buy an amplifier and CD player to go with my new speakers and that's going to take about 3 months, I would guess. (Have decided to sell my piano - Kawai NS10 - to fund the exercise. I no longer play these days.) The dealer didn't have all the models and there was only one I heard which sounded really good and that was a Denson CD player. The reviews were very mixed, however. It was $A3250. I haven't even begun to look at amplifiers seriously, but the dealer in question only showed me a 40w NAD - which didn't impress.

It's one thing to know of good equipment and another actually laying your hands on it somewhere at a good price, with advice and support.

[umslopogaas]

#8 richardfinegold and others, my local audio expert certainly believes in "break in" for speakers, and I think also for cartridges. It should, I think, be easy enough to find out if it is the equipment changing the quality of the output as it settles down, or just the owner's ears adapting. Just assemble the electronic equipment (oscilliscopes?) that can display waveforms, and record them every few days from new. If they change, its the equipment breaking in, if they dont its your ears.

I hasten to add that this is certainly not my subject - I'm a biologist - so if this isnt the case, someone who knows please say so.

[gradus]

I find that car audio systems seem to sound better with usage but I suspect that it's just that my ears get used to the sound. On the other hand car engines perform better when run in. Do the electronic components of computers, phones, ipads etc work better after being used for a few months from new? If so I've never noticed.

[pastoralguy]

I sold my 25 year old and very heavily used Meridian hi-fi for a brand new Quad system when my late father left me come money. Initially, I was a little disappointed since I was expecting the Quad to be better but, eventually, as the units were used more and my hearing adjusted, I realised that I had been correct in making the change. Although the Quad casings didn't have the quality of the Meridian there was no doubt that the money had been spent on the electronics. Ironically, I sold the Meridian equipment on eBay to a buyer in Germany who paid two thirds of what I had initially paid!

[Tetrachord]

Well done! I've given my 31 y/o B&W DM330s to my son and he has them in his winery, blaring out to keep him company while he's working. They still work but I'm sure they're not a patch on what they once were as the treble seems to have evaporated. They would have been worth nothing to sell. I paid about $1,000 Aud for them in 1985!! Meanwhile, the components that fed into them have come and gone over the decades!!