Those anti-british protestors

[Stillhomewardbound]

Nah! Stop messin' about!

[Serial_Apologist]

[MrGongGong]

Well, apparently, just as with the editors of Newsnight, some people are unaware of the fact that the Queen, after aeons on the throne is making, probably, THE most remarkable State Visit of her reign, to Ireland.

She, symptomically and symbolically has been a sort of figurehead for a most dysfunctional relationship between two countries. Atrocities have been committed in her name and that of her predecessors, while reprisals have been visited upon her subjects, and indeed on her own family.

Yet, she's there extending a gloved hand and finding a ready grasp. History in the making.

Now, back to my first post ... there remain the ardent, so called Republican, dissidents for whom 'anti West Britism' is a kind of vile sport. Rather akin to those that might enjoying pitching cockerels, one against another, in a bloody and violent confrontation.

They claim to fight a noble fight, but ultimately I would have to wonder. As with the BNP, once they had made their world wholly white, what would they do next?

They haven't a clue, and likewise, the protestors in Dublin haven't a clue as to what they'd do, once they'd 'kicked the Brits out'.

When even Ian Paisley can say 'there's a time for war, a time for peace', you really have to say to these protestors ... you are yesterday's men, you are the dinosaur cry of a vanished species.

Maybe this is "yesterdays" war in our mind
however I don't think that one can make that judgement for others (on ALL sides of the conflict), I wouldn't presume to say to those who's family members were murdered on Bloody Sunday or the Omagh bomb that "its time for peace now so you can forget it".

[Lateralthinking1]

Surely one of the major distinctions is that the Irish Republicans are republican and BNP supporters are not.

Having as a British Protestant spent many happy times in Catholic Irish music scenes in North London, and often identified more closely with the culture than that of Protestant England, I feel that I can approach this with a neutral eye, even if some of my comments will inevitably be unpalatable. First, I don't think that the Queen should have gone. Too risky. This was a job for Charles. But a Royal visit was particularly important given that there has been a recent flickering of the past troubles in the North. We then need to consider the Neil Lennon situation and in parallel the rise of the SNP and renewed emphasis on Scottish independence. I don't like to say it but I could envisage a time when the latter takes on a sectarian dimension. God forbid, the ongoing closeness of England and Scotland could become essentially a Protestant closeness. Links all ways are needed now.

The BNP is extremely ugly on the issue of race and it always will be. I oppose where it is fundamentally coming from and always will do. However, I have said this before and I will say it again. I do believe in fair reporting all round. If Irish Republicans were opposed to the British historically for being outsiders who ruled the indigenous minority, there are indeed similarities with the BNP there. The BNP's biggest fear is that the white British population will be outnumbered by others in a few decades, become a minority, ruled, as it perceives it, by the "non-British outsiders". Now the ridiculous aspects of that position are obvious to anyone sane. In a multicultural country, those born in Britain, whoever they are, are British and they have every right to be. There should also be room for political and economic migrants and the families of those born here. Many who come to this country these days are, in any case, white, a fact often conveniently overlooked by the BNP. But in fairness, the BNP states in its manifesto - I've read it - that there will always be a place in this country for ethnic minorities as long as they remain minorities. You can agree or disagree with that viewpoint but it isn't how the BNP view is normally presented. I don't like the way it is distorted.

I would say this too. The BNP has a canny way of picking up on issues that are of concern to many people. The very first sentence in its manifesto could have come straight out of the Greens' one. It refers to the need for much more sensitive decision making in planning, less building over green field sites and so on. This is a point that all of the main political parties scorn, putting business interests before the general public. They are right too that the debate on population numbers must be taken forward, although it should be irrespective of creed, to ensure that the infrastructure can cope and that social services can be maintained for all. Furthermore, much as I love culture that is non-British and have never been a fan of English nationalism, there is absolutely no doubt that the English need to protect their identity more now than ever. The English are not being given the political voice that Scotland and Wales have and they should have it, albeit updated in a multicultural way. This should include a decidedly English roots culture. I have attended many happy Divali meals, Jewish weddings, reggae gigs....the list is very long. I'm not inclined to spend much time on village cricket greens. Nevertheless, I don't like to see any culture being frowned on. When it comes to England, there is an inverted racism and that just isn't justifiable morally, whether you are keen on it or hate it.

It is probably just as well that there is UKIP because if there were no such party, the percentage of BNP votes would be alarmingly significant. It is clear to me that the BNP/UKIP vote can only grow in the absence of a convincing, multicultural, English Nationalist Party. We may have thought that the dog days were in the seventies and early eighties - I was involved in anti-apartheid causes and sympathetic to Rock Against Racism - but when someone like me can see a point to some of the BNP voters’ outlook, the country really has a problem. At the root of it is a growing class division within England at the same time as others are feeling empowered. As in Weimar, incompetence and corruption are also issues. The major parties will continue to believe that they can ignore who they ignore, and misrepresent at will, but it won’t be many years before they get a major shock.

[Lateralthinking1]

......Just noticed that Garret Fitzgerald has died. Sorry to hear it - I always thought that he was one of Ireland's better leaders.

[Stillhomewardbound]

That is shocking news. I was in Ireland back in February at the time of their elections and he was at his local count taking an avid interest, noting all the stats. He was interviewed and appeared in marvellous fettle, his mind as sharp as it ever was.

What sad news.

[LHC]

They haven't a clue, and likewise, the protestors in Dublin haven't a clue ....

.

Irish friends tell me that most the small number of protestors in Dublin probably had very little to do with republicanism and would have had a very poor grasp of politics or Ireland's history. In their viewa significant proportion these were thugs taking the opportunity to have a go at the Gardai. Indeed, I understand that most of those arrested were already known to the Gardai for low level criminal behaviour rather than the strength of any republican views.

If that is the case, they share that with the thugs in the BNP. However, like others on this thread, I think the attempt to draw other parallels with the BNP are rather wide of the mark.

[Serial_Apologist]

It is probably just as well that there is UKIP because if there were no such party, the percentage of BNP votes would be alarmingly significant. It is clear to me that the BNP/UKIP vote can only grow in the absence of a convincing, multicultural, English Nationalist Party. We may have thought that the dog days were in the seventies and early eighties - I was involved in anti-apartheid causes and sympathetic to Rock Against Racism - but when someone like me can see a point to some of the BNP voters’ outlook, the country really has a problem. At the root of it is a growing class division within England at the same time as others are feeling empowered. As in Weimar, incompetence and corruption are also issues. The major parties will continue to believe that they can ignore who they ignore, and misrepresent at will, but it won’t be many years before they get a major shock.

Whenever I try and put my mind to what is presumably meant by white English culture, I am at a loss, and can only come up with the English language at its best - but it is often better spoken by the Welsh and the Scots - our landscapes, our architecture, our love of gardening, and some, if by no means all, our music. It is almost impossible to isolate the last 4 categories from their manifestations in Wales and Scotland. English culture - indeed British culture as a whole - has been heavily (and for the most part willingly) impregnated by American cultural imperialism at least since the end of WW2; if one looks back at that time the history we were taught was lists of kings, queens and battles, and even further the fortunes of the ruling class, at worst, or the inventers of the Industrial Revolution, now income for tourism. Today, what remnants of a white working class culture remain are very attenuated, based in nostalgia (and therefore hard to disentangle from national chauvinism), and, just thinking of for example Pie 'n' Mash, like the rest, not very nutritious, sorry to have to say.

S-A

[scottycelt]

We then need to consider the Neil Lennon situation and in parallel the rise of the SNP and renewed emphasis on Scottish independence. I don't like to say it but I could envisage a time when the latter takes on a sectarian dimension. God forbid, the ongoing closeness of England and Scotland could become essentially a Protestant closeness. Links all ways are needed now.

What a curious statement.

The SNP is not only non-sectarian and non-racist it is avowedly so! It has Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists among its members ... it even has quite a few English. That is its very appeal to the huge majority of Scots who deplore any form of extremism, even though they might not favour a fully independent Scottish state. Leaving the mainly Northern Ireland issue of Neil Lennon aside, neither Scotland nor England can any longer be called 'Protestant' ... they are both now most obviously agnostic secular states to a much larger extent. When it comes down to church membership, Catholics now are widely reckoned to outnumber Protestants in Scotland at least.

It is surely hardly surprising that Irish Republicans are 'republicans'. Scottish Nationalism is quite different, enjoying both republican and royalist support. In fact, even in the most unlikely event of 'full' independence, Alexander Salmond the Great of Scotland has already declared that the current British monarch would remain head of state and be duly re-crowned 'Elizabeth, Queen of Scots'!

[amateur51]

Alexander Salmond the Great What of Scotland has already declared that the current British monarch would remain head of state and be duly re-crowned 'Elizabeth, Queen of Scots'!

[Lateralthinking1]

I think it is right to see English culture as having been diminished not by immigrants but American, Australian and European culture. From the hip-hop mentality through barbies and onto lager and wine drinking, it is plainly these imports that have changed the character of the nation. Conversely, reggae music, curries and green tea are additions to our culture because they came here with those who moved in large numbers to the country.

I say this not as an anti-American. I'm not, nor am I anti-Australia and Europe. I do think though that the still principally white-based rampant capitalism has been a disaster for England and all its people culturally while in other countries perhaps it has been felt more economically, not that here the economics are good. The cultural add-ons here from travel have promoted the brutal, the brash and a rather fake sophistication. While everyone absorbs them unthinkingly, it is the heart and soul that are lost.

This rather good song sums it up for me. It comes from the left of the spectrum but the artists concerned have been misrepresented as being on the extreme right. There is an Englishness in music, poetry, art, dance, food, drink, countryside, humour, sport, that is being drowned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5h4PFBuzvw

I am not against the SNP. I would probably vote for them if I were in Scotland. I fully recognise that they have a wide base of support and also that many SNP voters do not support independence. I am not wholly against independence either. But what I am saying is that when the divisions among SNP supporters on this issue begin to be seen, I do believe that it will go left versus right and very, very, broadly that could start to have the hint of Catholic versus Protestant.

I guess SNP right now are not unlike a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael but you only need to look at Sinn Fein and SDLP to see that Catholic politics are most naturally left-wing politics. SNP over time could evolve more into something like those over independence.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think it is right to see English culture as having been diminished not by immigrants but American, Australian and European culture. From the hip-hop mentality through barbies and onto lager and wine drinking, it is plainly these imports that have changed the character of the nation. Conversely, reggae music, curries and green tea are additions to our culture because they came here with those who moved in large numbers to the country.

[french frank]

So the curries that were introduced at the time of the British Raj diminished English culture as the wine drinking brought from the Continent diminished it? What about the English vineyards that flourished centuries ago?

I don't think it's right at all to think of either sort of introduction as 'diminishing' the culture; or you could turn it on its head and say what the English [sic] brought back to England [sic] enriched English [sic] culture, while what was brought into this country by immigrants enriches British [sic] culture.

In both cases I think the emphasis is on enriching rather than diminishing.

Isn't the SNP more like Sinn Fein?

[amateur51]

So the curries that were introduced at the time of the British Raj diminished English culture as the wine drinking brought from the Continent diminished it? What about the English vineyards that flourished centuries ago?

I don't think it's right at all to think of either sort of introduction as 'diminishing' the culture; or you could turn it on its head and say what the English [sic] brought back to England [sic] enriched English [sic] culture, while what was brought into this country by immigrants enriches British [sic] culture.

In both cases I think the emphasis is on enriching rather than diminishing.

Isn't the SNP more like Sinn Fein?

All this focus on England [sic] is making me sick [sic]

[vinteuil]

I think it is right to see English culture as having been diminished not by immigrants but American, Australian and European culture. .

"English" culture has been 'diminished ... by European culture'.... .

As the man said, what have the Romans ever done for us. Apart from the roads. And the rule of law. And architecture. And....

O yes, let's do without all that foreign Palestrina, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Dante, Baudelaire, Chekhov... Giotto, Rembrandt, Chardin, - to say nothing of all that French and Italian nonsense about food and wine....