Sad times

[Serial_Apologist]

I wouldn't use the word 'blame'. I said environment - by which I meant, well, what environment means, including social environment, when he was growing up. Not how his parents brought him up.

Oliver James - no straightforward Freudian, he - was nevertheless tracing all adult psychological problems back to childhood and upbringing. "They do it because it was done to them", he said - talking about paedophilia, but he could have been speaking of self-loathing.

[MrGongGong]

This will probably get deleted for being out of order etc
BUT I DO think it needs saying

Those two faced politicians who have filled the news today with their eulogies for the tragic death of Jo Cox really need to think a bit more IMV
If people rant on about how the UK is "full up" how we need to put "our people first" how some people are apologists for "death cults" how we need to "stop the open door immigration" and so on .......... the result is that some (maybe lots?) people will get into arguments in the pub, some people will end up voting for the bigots of UKIP and some unstable people will stab, shoot or attack people to try and get their message across

SO Nigel, Boris and chums YOU are responsible for this and no amount of your two faced faux empathy is convincing

[Flosshilde]

This will probably get deleted for being out of order etc
BUT I DO think it needs saying

Those two faced politicians who have filled the news today with their eulogies for the tragic death of Jo Cox really need to think a bit more IMV
If people rant on about how the UK is "full up" how we need to put "our people first" how some people are apologists for "death cults" how we need to "stop the open door immigration" and so on .......... the result is that some (maybe lots?) people will get into arguments in the pub, some people will end up voting for the bigots of UKIP and some unstable people will stab, shoot or attack people to try and get their message across

SO Nigel, Boris and chums YOU are responsible for this and no amount of your two faced faux empathy is convincing

[Bryn]

This will probably get deleted for being out of order etc
BUT I DO think it needs saying

Those two faced politicians who have filled the news today with their eulogies for the tragic death of Jo Cox really need to think a bit more IMV
If people rant on about how the UK is "full up" how we need to put "our people first" how some people are apologists for "death cults" how we need to "stop the open door immigration" and so on .......... the result is that some (maybe lots?) people will get into arguments in the pub, some people will end up voting for the bigots of UKIP and some unstable people will stab, shoot or attack people to try and get their message across

SO Nigel, Boris and chums YOU are responsible for this and no amount of your two faced faux empathy is convincing

Well, I would agree that those you mention have actively created a political debating environment conducive to those vulnerable to express their discontent in a violent manor, but the principal responsibility still lies within the psyche of the direct perpetrator, not those you mention.

[MrGongGong]

Well, I would agree that those you mention have actively created a political debating environment conducive to those vulnerable to express their discontent in a violent manor, but the principal responsibility still lies within the psyche of the direct perpetrator, not those you mention.

Some people believe the shit that Farrage and his ilk spout
they really DO think that we are being invaded
the really DO think that the only way to stop this is to take direct action
telling people over and over again that we are under threat from migrants, "death cults" and the rest will result in more tragic events i'm afraid

Sure, people ARE responsible for their own actions BUT we are all connected and not everyone thinks that life is a public school debating society (I'm not suggesting you do but some of the crap I heard on the radio today made me think that many of our so called "leaders" think that way)

[french frank]

We've moved this discussion on to another thread, but perhaps we could just digest this piece by the pro-Leave Spectator and stop the inflammatory comments.

[MrGongGong]

We've moved this discussion on to another thread, but perhaps we could just digest this piece by the pro-Leave Spectator and stop the inflammatory comments.

"When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either."

Exactly
Put better than what I said

[Bryn]

I do not intend to absolve those you mentioned from responsibility for creating the conditions for the internal contradictions of the perpetrator to manifest themselves in violence. My point is that the prime responsibility still lies with the perpetrator.

[Flosshilde]

It does seem to be saying basically the same as Mr GG. And saying it very well.

[MrGongGong]

I do not intend to absolve those you mentioned from responsibility for creating the conditions for the internal contradictions of the perpetrator to manifest themselves in violence. My point is that the prime responsibility still lies with the perpetrator.

yes it does
BUT when you have folks banging on over and over again with this kind of shite

http://www.edp24.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.4580739.1466080499!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

Some people will be unable to realise that its just a marketing ploy by a load of shysters

[teamsaint]

....

i moved this post to the Another Go thread.

edit: no I didn't , that seems to be closed.

anyway, look at the real perpetrators of division..... he leaders of the mainstream parties, was the point.

[french frank]

This is just the referendum continuing to make people behave in an ugly way. And that includes here. The lesson seems to be that both sides should look to their language.

[P. G. Tipps]

I wouldn't use the word 'blame'. I said environment - by which I meant, well, what environment means, including social environment, when he was growing up. Not how his parents brought him up.

So I take it you used the word 'nurture' in very broad terms as a substitute word for society/environment.

In that case why do the overwhelming mass of the population (who have lived in the same/similar 'nurturing' environment) not ultimately attain automatic weapons and go around slaughtering many wholly innocent people? Clearly there is something particular about the individual who does this and therefore surely, by way of simple logic, that is where the root of the problem lies?

Apart from suggesting 'insanity' do I know what that problem is? No, I don't, as I simply cannot get into another person's mind. I really don't think anyone else can either, so maybe that is why some prefer to take the easy option and "blame" others in society (never themselves of course!) for the cruel, selfish actions of the individual?

[french frank]

So I take it you used the word 'nurture' in very broad terms as a substitute word for society/environment.

I put the word in quotes so that it wouldn't be taken in the immediate, narrow sense. OED includes: 'the fact of having been brought up in a particular social environment (in later use esp. as a factor influencing [sic] or determining [sic] personality, as opposed to a person's innate characteristics'.

In that case why do the overwhelming mass of the population (who have lived in the same/similar 'nurturing' environment) not ultimately attain automatic weapons and go around slaughtering many wholly innocent people? Clearly there is something particular about the individual who does this and therefore surely, by way of simple logic, that is where the root of the problem lies?

Yes, people's innate personalities and 'nature' may be different. Some people may be naturally more susceptible to persuasion, to outside influences, to peer pressure. These aren't 'moral failings' in themselves, but they create pressures for those individuals which other people aren't called upon to wrestle with.

This isn't, ever, to excuse the individual from blame: for example, mental illness does not automatically turn a man into a neo-Nazi; any more than anguish over one's sexuality makes one a mass murderer.

[jean]

The alliterative expression "nature and nurture" in English has been in use since at least the Elizabethan period and goes back to medieval French. The combination of the two concepts as complementary is ancient (Greek: ἁπό φύσεως καὶ εὐτροφίας).

So there's no point in focussing on the precise meaning of 'nurture' in isolation from its context here.