Sad times

[Anastasius]

John Snow reporting from Soho stated that the streets around the gay pub that was bombed back in 1999 had filled with an estimated 10,000 people of all persuasions and none, gay and not gay, gathererd in solidarity for the victims of Orlando. And it was repeated in cities worldwide. I guess we have to thank the Internet for making that possible - it couldn't have been arranged that quickly 25 years ago.

Very true...but equally one could also say that these type of acts are fostered by social media sites, forums and blogs on the internet. A double-edged sword.

Still a sad event, nonetheless.

[ahinton]

Very true...but equally one could also say that these type of acts are fostered by social media sites, forums and blogs on the internet. A double-edged sword.

Not quite sure about "fostered" (at least by no means in all cases); "made easier", perhaps. Some of these atrocities are planned in advance to some degree and others enacted almost on the spur of the moment.

Still a sad event, nonetheless.

Indeed, without the slightest doubt.

[Beef Oven!]

While this is true to some extent, one can nevertheless locate the eruptions in the Middle East, together with its following reverberations through the Islamic world, to US and US-allied interferences in defense, in military-strategic terms, of the interests of maintaining and spreading US capital around the world, particularly in the grooming of various ruling parties where oil remains the defining post-Cold War issue. Seen that way, with the once tried-and-tested national liberation movements all either smashed or succumbed to western carrot-and-stick tactics such as pressures from the World Bank and IMF, where Islam is conveniently present, some have seized upon it as a means to get back at the west for all its perceived sins, past and present.

Where I agree with you, if I've interpreted what you say right, is that a leftist movement, of the old-fashioned socialist, environmentalist, or some combination of the two, were it to grow to any influence beyond its present confines, would be as subject to attack from ISIS-type terrorist movements as any other alternative.

I was deliberate in talking about a 'causal dynamic'. I would argue that what you are referring to are triggers for something that is already there, ie a ceaseless quest for the setting up of a caliphate.

More importantly, where I disagree with you most, is that you see the actions of IS/IS-inspired terrorist (or whatever the correct name for them is) as a response to the worse manifestations of liberal democracy/world capitalism and US imperialism. On the contrary, it is the virtues of liberal democracy and the US that these people are fighting against - gender equality, freedom of speech, pluralism, LGBT acceptance, secularism etc. It's a vital distinction. And therein lies the problem that the contemporary left has - it seems not to be able to grasp this distinction and see the problem for what it is; all to easily defaulting to out of date nomenclature - hence the relevance of the Karl Marx quote that I referred to in other posts.

Regarding your our last paragraph concerning the left as a possible target, we differ. I don't see growing influence as the variable that would cause this. It might be a trigger, but the reason why the left could (I believe is) a target is because it is engaged in something that is anathema (no pun) to such terrorists - pluralism, democracy, freedom of speech, opposition .........

[P. G. Tipps]

That's a rather debatable assumption I think.

Maybe. Yet given the facts and evidence that have come out since the atrocity it is a somewhat logical one.

The really big assumption was made by the media and politicians who immediately rushed to call the attack 'homophobic' when the facts were simply not known. As many of the facts about the Orlando mass murderer are now available online it is pointless in me repeating them here.

All of this, of course. is absolutely no comfort to the relatives of the poor innocent souls who lost their lives in Orlando, but, as in the Jo Cox murder, it is maybe wise to avoid making assumptions about motives and apportioning blame to any one group or particular mindset until more information becomes available.

In any case, how can any sane person really understand the mind of an individual who goes around slaughtering wholly innocent people, whatever his/her alleged motive?

[Richard Barrett]

The idea that someone who is gay cannot at the same time be homophobic is silly and misguided. For example it's well-known that the anti-semite Wagner was haunted by the belief that his own ancestry was partly Jewish. There are plenty of other examples.

One thing that the comparison between the Orlando massacre and the murder of Jo Cox brings up yet again is that whether a killer is described as a "terrorist" or as a "madman" depends to a great extent on the colour of his skin.

[Flosshilde]

I'm not sure the Klu Klux Klan could ever be described as 'Christian'. It is viruntly both anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic and all the main Christian denominations have condemned it. To equate a tiny minority of murderous Islamists with Christianity and its 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' command is clearly arrant nonsense put out by the faith-phobics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

Vehemently anti-Catholic, Klan members had an explicitly Protestant Christian terrorist ideology, basing their beliefs in part on a "religious foundation" in Protestant Christianity. The goals of the KKK included, from an early time onward, an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible", and they believed that "Jesus was the first Klansman." From 1915 onward, Klansmen conducted cross-burnings not only to intimidate targets, but also to demonstrate their respect and reverence for Jesus Christ, and the ritual of lighting crosses was steeped in Christian symbolism, including prayer and singing hymns. Within Christianity the Klan directed hostilities against Catholics. Modern Klan organizations remain associated with acts of domestic terrorism in the US. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...m#Ku_Klux_Klan

As for the main topic of the terrible Orlando massacre it has been reported that the mass murderer was himself gay who used the venue regularly so 'homophobia' is not the issue here.

Self-hatred is the worst kind of hatred.

[Flosshilde]

I guess we have to thank the Internet for making that possible - it couldn't have been arranged that quickly 25 years ago.

I'm not so sure - 25 years ago we had telephone trees which meant that a large number of people could be contacted quickly, and people in pubs, clubs etc would be told that something was being organised. Word would get around very quickly.

[Anastasius]

Not quite sure about "fostered" (at least by no means in all cases); "made easier", perhaps. Some of these atrocities are planned in advance to some degree and others enacted almost on the spur of the moment.


Indeed, without the slightest doubt.

No, I think that 'fostered' is the correct word for the following reasons.

There have always been paedophiles, -ophobes of whatever flavour, those with mental issues, and those with an agenda or a perceived grievance. Prior to the internet, they operated in a relative vacuum. Now, there are so many sorts of social media, forums populated by those with similar agendas, hate, whatever that this validates, in the mind of the perpetrator, any action that someone like Mair will carry out. Or simply it's because someone wants the glare of instant publicity - again, provided by social media etc.

Whether or not these atrocities are planned in advance or on the spur of the moment is irrelevant.

[Bryn]

Very true...but equally one could also say that these type of acts are fostered by social media sites, forums and blogs on the internet. A double-edged sword.

Still a sad event, nonetheless.

A Double-edged sword indeed.

[ahinton]

No, I think that 'fostered' is the correct word for the following reasons.

There have always been paedophiles, -ophobes of whatever flavour, those with mental issues, and those with an agenda or a perceived grievance. Prior to the internet, they operated in a relative vacuum. Now, there are so many sorts of social media, forums populated by those with similar agendas, hate, whatever that this validates, in the mind of the perpetrator, any action that someone like Mair will carry out. Or simply it's because someone wants the glare of instant publicity - again, provided by social media etc.

Fair enough; the specific terminology pales in any case into relative insignificance compared to the gravity of the events.

Whether or not these atrocities are planned in advance or on the spur of the moment is irrelevant.

It's irrelevant to the results and their consequences, of course - and to those who have been bereaved; my only reason for mentioning it was merely to seek to distinguish between, on the one hand, instances where the perpetrator/s have made some kind of announcement or threat or given some other kind of possible clue in advance and, on the other, those where the action appears to have come pretty much out of the blue; as far as appears to be known, the perpetrator in the Orlando case was known to FBI (who apparently perceived no reason to take precautions and so did nothing about it) and was allegedly known to be mentally unstable whereas, in what is so far known of the Jo Cox case, the only known advance threats appear to have come from sources other than the perpetrator.

[P. G. Tipps]

The idea that someone who is gay cannot at the same time be homophobic is silly and misguided. For example it's well-known that the anti-semite Wagner was haunted by the belief that his own ancestry was partly Jewish. There are plenty of other examples .

If you are correct then in the first case the problem lies with an individual within the community concerned and in the second is simply a curious flaw in the individual's character. Both the 'homophobia' and 'antisemitism' are in each case deeply personal problems and therefore the attitudes of outsiders cannot be held to blame, which is the normal inference when both terms are used.

One thing that the comparison between the Orlando massacre and the murder of Jo Cox brings up yet again is that whether a killer is described as a "terrorist" or as a "madman" depends to a great extent on the colour of his skin.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Hasn't the Orlando murderer been described as both a 'terrorist' and 'madman' and presumably the colour of his skin never changed ... ?

[Anastasius]

It would be nice to see more leadership from the Judeo-Christian world in trying to combat the death cult of military imperialism.

But, as has already been pointed out, while the "terrorist" in this case may or may not have committed his crimes in the name of Islam (and bearing in mind that the issue of religion is never brought up when the perpetrator is not a Muslim, which should surely provide food for thought - Anders Breivik for example was a Lutheran, and we don't hear calls for the "Lutheran community" to "unequivocally condemn" his actions etc. etc.), his victims were not a random collection of people such as you might find in a shopping mall or whatever, but a night club full of gay people. So, apart from the issue of the ready availability of assault weapons, the other major issue here is homophobia and how that might be addressed in American society.

No, but neither Anders or any other non-Muslim killers/terrorists/delete where appropriate claim that they are doing it in the name of their religion. Surely food for thought ?

[Richard Barrett]

Both the 'homophobia' and 'antisemitism' are in each case deeply personal problems and therefore the attitudes of outsiders cannot be held to blame

I'm not going to get sucked into your rabbit-hole of sophistry so you'll have to make do with this one response: if homophobia (or antisemitism) didn't already exist in society it wouldn't be latched on to as a reason to hate and in this case murder - "deeply personal problems" of this kind are never entirely personal, they partake of a rhetoric and prejudice that is already present in an individual's social environment (actual or virtual).

[Richard Barrett]

or any other non-Muslim killers

That really isn't true at all, although it's less well-publicised (which is my point). Numerous deadly attacks against abortion clinics have taken place in the USA in the name of "Christian values". Other parts of the world where "Christian terrorism" has claimed many lives are Lebanon in the 1980s (including the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps) and the Central African Republic in 2014 (resulting in the deaths of over a thousand Muslims and the displacement of many times more).

[jean]

...Both the 'homophobia' and 'antisemitism' are in each case deeply personal problems and therefore the attitudes of outsiders cannot be held to blame...

I'm not going to get sucked into your rabbit-hole of sophistry...

I don't think it's sophistry so much as a total failure to understand human psychology.

...if homophobia (or antisemitism) didn't already exist in society it wouldn't be latched on to as a reason to hate and in this case murder - "deeply personal problems" of this kind are never entirely personal, they partake of a rhetoric and prejudice that is already present in an individual's social environment (actual or virtual).

Or as I would put it, if someone subscribes to a particular religionn and that religion makes it very clear to them that an aspect of their being is quite unacceptable to their God, this conflict can result in a a self-hatred more intense than any directed at the other.