Latest RAJARs

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well it's already a good way along that path. Afternoon Concert is similar to the morning schedules now, with slightly less chat but more and more bits and pieces, single movements, odd juxtapositions. Concert it ain't as far as I'm concerned. This was yesterday's https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001d6b8 I didn't hear the beginning part so don't know if the Saint-Saens was a complete repeat(although strictly speaking it was the second airing later on that was a repeat...) or just the organ bit first time round - or just another bit of info carelessness, such as is all too frequent.
The insertion of an overexcited young DJ type into the Early Music Show to give the "news" is the latest attack.

This doesn’t tally with with my experience of AC and I listen most days .Not only was the Saint-Seans complete it was also a superb performance by Juan de la Rubia, organ with RTVE Symphony Orchestra and Pablo Gonzalez, conductor . There was also a complete Haydn Bear symphony. Most Afternoon concerts seem to feature three substantial complete works - typically a concerto and two symphonies .

[french frank]

This doesn’t tally with with my experience of AC and I listen most days .Not only was the Saint-Seans complete it was also a superb performance by Juan de la Rubia, organ with RTVE Symphony Orchestra and Pablo Gonzalez, conductor . There was also a complete Haydn Bear symphony. Most Afternoon concerts seem to feature three substantial complete works - typically a concerto and two symphonies .

Clearly, I picked on the wrong day.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Clearly, I picked on the wrong day.

I’ve just looked through the last week and every episode contains at least three complete works e.g, symphony , concerto , Debussy La Mer. If that isn’t a concert what is? The fact that shorter works are interspersed is pretty much in line with early 20th century and nineteenth century concert practice. Afternoon Concert is not a good example of so- called “dumbing down” . There are other parts of the Radio 3 schedule which fit that bill much better .

[Ein Heldenleben]

This is the earliest Afternoon Concert I could find on BBC Genome - probably broadcast in Northern Regions only. It is pretty much a pot-pourri. 2LS is the old Leeds based Radio service - I suspect the concert would have come from Manchester.


16:10
An Afternoon Concert


2LS Leeds logo
2LS Leeds
Sat 3rd Jan 1931, 16:10 on 2LS Leeds
View in Radio Times

The Northern Wireless Orchestra: Selection. Tosca (Puccini). Zelda Bock (Pianoforte): Berceuse, Op. 57 (Chopin): Concert Study in D Flat(Liszt). Orchestra: Three Eastern Sketches (Howgill); Morning; Afternoon; Evening. Zelda Bock : Ni

[french frank]

I’ve just looked through the last week and every episode contains at least three complete works e.g, symphony , concerto , Debussy La Mer. If that isn’t a concert what is? The fact that shorter works are interspersed is pretty much in line with early 20th century and nineteenth century concert practice. Afternoon Concert is not a good example of so- called “dumbing down” . There are other parts of the Radio 3 schedule which fit that bill much better .

If 1.7m people are still listening to Radio 3, clearly they're not entirely displeased with everything (in fact they may be pleased with everything). I'm not personally convinced that 19th and early 20th c. practice should be the yardstick for an orchestral concert today, and the litter of different genres spread out between up to a dozen pieces would not be for me. There were even complaints a few years back about the evening concert interval being musical, especially if in a different genre. But I suppose one gets used to anything if one chooses to persist.

I don't agree with the implication behind, "If that isn’t a concert what is?" It's precisely the additions to the symphony, concerto, overture/tone poem type format which makes the programme resemble the playlist programmes Breakfast or Essential Classics.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If 1.7m people are still listening to Radio 3, clearly they're not entirely displeased with everything (in fact they may be pleased with everything). I'm not personally convinced that 19th and early 20th c. practice should be the yardstick for an orchestral concert today, and the litter of different genres spread out between up to a dozen pieces would not be for me. There were even complaints a few years back about the evening concert interval being musical, especially if in a different genre. But I suppose one gets used to anything if one chooses to persist.

I don't agree with the implication behind, "If that isn’t a concert what is?" It's precisely the additions to the symphony, concerto, overture/tone poem type format which makes the programme resemble the playlist programmes Breakfast or Essential Classics.

I think you’re maybe stuck in the mindset that a concert has to be three substantial works. That format - typically overture , concerto , symphony - makes up only a tiny proportion of all the many “concert “ types that have been programmed over the centuries . It’s as much the product of marketing as of any artistic impulse . Afternoon Concert is far removed from Essential Classics because it largely consists of complete works. Very often when extracts are played they are directly related to the main works.

[french frank]

I think you’re maybe stuck in the mindset that a concert has to be three substantial works. That format - typically overture , concerto , symphony - makes up only a tiny proportion of all the many “concert “ types that have been programmed over the centuries . It’s as much the product of marketing as of any artistic impulse . Afternoon Concert is far removed from Essential Classics because it largely consists of complete works. Very often when extracts are played they are directly related to the main works.

I won't disagree with any of that. Except that possibly 'stuck in the mindset' sounds a bit derogatory. If one likes to get "stuck into" a piece of music, the three full length works is a good combination. As I said in my previous reply, I don't think that the "over the centuries" argument is a very powerful one. Over the centuries, a lot of things happened which would not happen now, may even be condemned. I don't condemn the new "old fashioned" Afternoon Concert format. Like others, I just don't like it. Using Andrew's database earlier this morning to check that the Prague symphony was played in its in entirety (it was), I noticed a single movement had been played on the same programme a few weeks earlier. So the full works may be said to be usually the case, but not always. The analogy with Breakfast and Essential Classics was over the number of disparate pieces played - I counted 12 for one 'concert'. Complete works they may have been, but if they included The Kinks singing "A Dedicated Follower of Fashion" (they didn't), that would have been a complete work too.

But, really, I'm happy to accept this is just a difference of taste. It's just that so much of R3 has gone down a similar path that I am no longer one of the 1.7m listening.

[gurnemanz]

I’ve just looked through the last week and every episode contains at least three complete works e.g, symphony , concerto , Debussy La Mer. If that isn’t a concert what is? The fact that shorter works are interspersed is pretty much in line with early 20th century and nineteenth century concert practice. Afternoon Concert is not a good example of so- called “dumbing down” . There are other parts of the Radio 3 schedule which fit that bill much better .

Agreed. If Afternoon Concert were similar to Essential Classics, as suggested above, I would not be listening. We probably don't need a complete intact concert both in the afternoon and the evening. Some of the splitting does annoy and make it bitty but I am generally OK with the format.

PS the oft-trotted-out term "dumbing-down" does not appeal to me either in this context - or indeed generally:

a) American usage of "dumb", which usually means "silent" or "not able to speak" in Britain.

b) now a cliché for condemning any attempt to broaden the appeal of classical music. Clearly, not all such attempts will work for everybody, me included, but I don't have to listen and can see that they need to try something different.

[french frank]

Agreed. If Afternoon Concert were similar to Essential Classics, as suggested above, I would not be listening.

I explained the analogy in the previous post to your as, "The analogy with Breakfast and Essential Classics was over the number of disparate pieces played - I counted 12 for one 'concert'. " Many people do like Breakfast and Essential Classis, of course. No disrespect intended.

PS the oft-trotted-out term "dumbing-down" does not appeal to me either in this context - or indeed generally:

I think you may have lost that battle. It's now included in the OED with its current meaning: "To simplify or reduce the intellectual content of (esp. published or broadcast material) in order to appeal to a larger number of people." I would relate that immediately to all three programmes in that they largely reduce the number of full length 'classical' works, and include a number of short, often lighter non-classical pieces. I will accept that the spoken output of Afternoon Concert is different.

But as I say, it really does only depend on what the individual likes.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Looks to be all complete pieces this pm and fairly outré fare. One might almost say public service broadcasting at its best - almost as if they've been listening to comments . I agree re “dumbing down” which is why I put it in quotation marks. The use of the phrase is in itself evidence of cultural decline but it’s a lost battle.

Today’s programme

Franck
Les eolides
BBC Philharmonic
Yan Pascal Tortelier, conductor

Debussy
Syrinx
Anne Danican Philidor
Sonata in D
Lucie Horsch, recorder
Thomas Dunford, lute

Schubert
Four Polonaises, D.599
Lucas & Arthur Jussen, piano

3.00
Franck
Symphony in D minor, Op.48
RTVE Symphony Orchestra
Chloe van Soeterstede, conductor

Francis Grier
Missa Aedis Christi
BBC Singers
James Sherlock, conductor

[oddoneout]

Looks to be all complete pieces this pm and fairly outré fare. One might almost say public service broadcasting at its best - almost as if they've been listening to comments . I agree re “dumbing down” which is why I put it in quotation marks. The use of the phrase is in itself evidence of cultural decline but it’s a lost battle.

Today’s programme

Franck
Les eolides
BBC Philharmonic
Yan Pascal Tortelier, conductor

Debussy
Syrinx
Anne Danican Philidor
Sonata in D
Lucie Horsch, recorder
Thomas Dunford, lute

Schubert
Four Polonaises, D.599
Lucas & Arthur Jussen, piano

3.00
Franck
Symphony in D minor, Op.48
RTVE Symphony Orchestra
Chloe van Soeterstede, conductor

Francis Grier
Missa Aedis Christi
BBC Singers
James Sherlock, conductor

That isn't the full picture of what's being broadcast, or rather as at 2-50 we've had some of that, but also other bits and bobs interspersed (including more bits from the Lucie Horsch programme), and currently an oboe piece which again isn't listed in the schedule and might or might not take us up to the 3-00pm big piece.
Why the one movement of the Franck which is the 3-00pm feature, as has been done with all the other 3-00pm big pieces this week - are we supposed to compare and contrast, as they are different performers?
I just find the current version not as much to my taste as used to be the case. I don't like having recitals chopped up and put between other items that I can't see the connection with (as with Lucie Horsch this week), the published schedule is not the full schedule, sometimes by several pieces, which I find confusing on occasion if I come in part way through expecting one thing and getting something else, I don't like the inclusion of the adverts - with the number of short pieces it's sometimes difficult to know what's trail and what's AC unless it's one I've heard umpteen times before, and there's a lot more presenter chat than there used to be.
I'm not wedded to the traditional concert format, so that's not the issue. I also rather like having unusual pairings or connections but I don't feel that is what is being done now, it just seems to be fairly random juxtapositions. It used to be the case that AC was something I was happy to listen to all through unless the big work was something I really didn't like, and in fact was often preferred to the evening concert offering, not least because there seemed to be a greater chance of hearing something different from the normal repertoire.
However I accept this is all perceptions and subjective reactions, and possibly elements of faulty memory, but whatever the cause I don't listen nearly as much.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I though Syrinx on the recorder was seriously weird.

[oddoneout]

I though Syrinx on the recorder was seriously weird.

Yes, I thought at first it was some other piece - I may not be a fan of Debussy but it didn't sound right, which is a bit odd considering the flute and recorder aren't really that far apart - or I thought they weren't...

[french frank]

I'm not wedded to the traditional concert format ...

I'm quite wedded to it . Not that that would mean I would make a fuss if there were departures from that format now and then. Anyway, I wouldn't make a value judgment about whether it was 'better' or 'worse' than in the past. It's just what suits my taste, or what I find satisfying to listen to.

As far as the quarterly figures are concerned I suspect we haven't really returned to 'business as usual' and perhaps never will do, as things move on and listening habits change. Comparisons are not so much odious as gruesome, but there are quarter on quarter figures - June 2022/September 2022; and year on year September 2021/September 2022. For what they're worth.

So June 2022, reach 2.022m, share 1.5% (highish), compared with September 2022, reach 1.708m (terrible), share 1.3% (normal)

September 2021, reach 2.165m, share 1.6% (high).

Breakfast:

Sept 2021 708k; June 2022 699k; Sept 2022 595k.

[oddoneout]

Just noticed this

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/nov/01/share-your-views-of-bbc-radio-3