Latest RAJARs

[AuntDaisy]

Idle speculation but I think both the Opera Matinée and the Afternoon concert have suffered from a lack of supply of free EBU concerts to fill the schedule with because of Covid. There’s been a similar problem with In Concert .
The Sunday feature is usually excellent but it has become very” haphazard “in subject selection want of a better word. To put it as tactfully as I can though I completely respect the honesty of the intention I sometimes wonder whether the subjects merit the time and money spent on them. But then that’s just my judgement.

[Frances_iom]

basically the Beeb is watering down a gill into a quart pot, and all to often the milk is already somewhat curdled - I guess these days afternoon concert is best described as musical interludes between the adverts.

[french frank]

Seems odd FF, as an administrator of the Forum for Radio Three, that you admit to not listening to the station.

It's never been a requirement that forum members listen to Radio 3. But I suppose having personally spent countless hours scrabbling to get the forum set up in the first place, before the BBC shut down their messageboard and we lost contact with all the old messageboarders, I find it hard to let go.

I don't regard listening to music - concerts, recitals or operas - as 'erudite', which I associate with learning, scholarship, and no doubt the very elitist qualities which the station has done its best to shed in the last 20-30 years. It's the contribution of the presenters I don't value. I can hear music elsewhere.

[oddoneout]

basically the Beeb is watering down a gill into a quart pot, and all to often the milk is already somewhat curdled - I guess these days afternoon concert is best described as musical interludes between the adverts.

Yes it does rather seem like that now. It's a less satisfactory version of the morning schedule in some respects I think when I am feeling particularly irritated by the incomplete listings and the scattergun (or non-existent) approach to putting together a sensible and pleasing sequence of music. At least with the morning offering you know it will be incomplete pieces, not always bearing much relationship to each other, and mixed with a lot of presenter input and other material. The AC too often these days is a random collection of items (and not always complete at that) with more presenter input than is necessary or desirable and, because the listings are incomplete and/or wrong (why, they know what they are going to broadcast?) there are often frustrating punctuations by unexpected(and not always welcome) unidentified pieces. It does a disservice to both the music and the listener. I'm listening to AC less and less these days which I resent as it used to be a great pleasure and often preferred to the evening concerts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's never been a requirement that forum members listen to Radio 3. But I suppose having personally spent countless hours scrabbling to get the forum set up in the first place, before the BBC shut down their messageboard and we lost contact with all the old messageboarders, I find it hard to let go.

I don't regard listening to music - concerts, recitals or operas - as 'erudite', which I associate with learning, scholarship, and no doubt the very elitist qualities which the station has done its best to shed in the last 20-30 years. It's the contribution of the presenters I don't value. I can hear music elsewhere.

This caught my eye for Andrew’s imestimable Printable listings thread


FRI 22:45 The Essay (m0010y64)
The Lost Hours

The Cocktail Hour

Do people still observe the cocktail hour? Modern drinks parties are less formal than they used to be, but cocktails certainly still feature heavily. Novelist Andrew Martin discusses the sherry parties he attended at Oxford University, sometimes with disastrous consequences, and his envy of those who were ‘going on’, presumably somewhere more interesting and more glamorous. Cocktail parties sound sophisticated – is there a working-class equivalent he asks? He looks at what the young call 'pre-drinks' or ‘pre’s’, a utilitarian name for the practical business of getting drunk with one's friends on cheap wine, before heading off somewhere where wine will be more expensive and scarce. Other evening rituals are also considered. Are the supper-party with its occasionally louche associations, along with the ineffably French custom of the cinq-a-sept, in decline or are they here to stay?

French Frank , perhaps you are right and there has been a discernible decline ?

[french frank]

French Frank , perhaps you are right and there has been a discernible decline ?

I really don't discount the role of personal taste here - including, not least, my own. I have been brainwashed into avoiding referring to classical music as 'serious', on the grounds that all sorts of other music are 'serious. Still less do I refer to it as 'good music' which is what it was called in the 1940s and 50s.

But, what has changed - and this is a point of view which I believe I've mentioned before - is that the Third Programme was set up with a stated purpose to cater for a specific audience which was different from that of the light Light Programme or the homely Home Service which were already being served. It was acknowledged - always - that it would be a small audience, definitely 'attentive' (not treating it as a background to other things):

"When the Third Programme was at its planning stage in 1946 the terms of reference stated that it was designed “to be of artistic and cultural importance. The audience envisaged is one already aware of artistic experience and will include persons of taste, of intelligence, and of education; it is, therefore, selective not casual, and both attentive and critical”.

The terminology is old-fashioned, but I'm bound to conclude that the audience for such broadcasting, with such tastes, is now so small as to be negligible, to be dismissed. The audience which Radio 3 is targeting is one which in many respects is the polar opposite.

[french frank]

Furthermore:

"There are many conceptions of the functions of broadcasting, some of them narrowly limited. But a public service such as the BBC has to feel that it is covering the whole range of its possibilities, that it is providing for all classes of its listeners, and that it is, among its other functions, presenting the great classical repertoire in music and drama, and "so far as they are broadcastable" in literature, and the other arts.

To do this within the two services already existing, the regionalised Home Service and the Light Programme, is not possible. Quite apart from the already great pressure upon their time, the basic conceptions of ordinary broadcasting with its news bulletins and other fixed points, its desire in the course of the limited peak listening hours every evening to give some service to every possible taste, restrict to a hampering extent the possibility of devoting the necessary time to the full and frequent performance of great works in their entirety or to the development of those highest forms of music and drama which, while they have a major importance, have, as yet, only a minority audience. The range of the Home Service and the Light Programme is admitted by all who have studied broadcasting programmes throughout the world to be outstanding. But in view of all this, it is not enough.

The Third Programme will have no fixed points. It will devote to the great works the time they require. It will seek every evening to do something that is culturally satisfying and significant. It will devote occasional series of evenings to some related masterpieces, a Shakespeare historical cycle, all the Beethoven quartets, or a series of Mozart operas. It will, so far as circumstances permit, be international. Concerts, operas, plays will be taken from abroad as landline conditions improve. Its talks will include contributions from the great European thinkers. Its whole content will be directed to an audience that is not of one class but that is perceptive and intelligent. "

https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/thirdprogramme/introduction.shtml

The disappointing thing is that as BBC Radio has expanded to cover more and more tastes, the aims of the Third Programme have contracted - notwithstanding that Radio 3 has become a 24-hour service.

[Quarky]

"When the Third Programme was at its planning stage in 1946 the terms of reference stated that it was designed “to be of artistic and cultural importance. The audience envisaged is one already aware of artistic experience and will include persons of taste, of intelligence, and of education; it is, therefore, selective not casual, and both attentive and critical”.

The terminology is old-fashioned, but I'm bound to conclude that the audience for such broadcasting, with such tastes, is now so small as to be negligible, to be dismissed. The audience which Radio 3 is targeting is one which in many respects is the polar opposite.

You are right in many respects FF, but I find I am listening to Radio 3 more and more. Listening "live" any time between 5 p.m. and 8 a.m., and during the day via BBC Sounds to previous broadcasts, when I have time.

I have my reasons......

[antongould]

With respects, french frank is well informed, and in detail, by those of us who do listen to Radio 3 on a regular basis and post on this forum. By contrast, you do not appear to be a frequent contributor, so what authority do you have to carp? Were it not for french frank, would would not even have this forum.

Well said, IMVVHO, S_A ……. I have probably had more discussions with FF, about the direction of R3, than just about anyone else. In the past she has listened when something new has evolved maybe even to Ms Alker ….. I have found her to be fair in considering the points I, stumblingly, try to make and willing to accept empirical evidence. Also as S_A points out without her there would be no Forum.

[french frank]

I think what’s happened is much about general cultural decline isn’t it ?

Yes, with the cautious proviso that 'decline' can relate to volume, a diminishing or contracting of something. I wouldn't claim that my cultural preferences are superior to anyone else's - that would be very pre-modern. The quantity of that content diminishes and the audience for it diminishes: chicken or egg? What increases to take its place is increasingly popular = gets larger audiences. The direction of change is unstoppable (I suppose).

But Tolstoy is a greater novelist than Jeffrey Archer isn’t he ?

I couldn't possible comment (haven't read J Archer, still plodding through the first book of Proust. Coincidentally, Swann was always unwilling to offer an opinion on the quality of a work of art, but contented himself with offering facts: dates, names &c)).

I still think there is much to admire on Radio Three . Tonight for example a 3 and a half hour relay of Tannhauser or indeed the record review with David Owen Norris now on The Elgar Violin Concerto.

Yes, among the honourable exceptions that I referred to. For the individual listener it boils down to whether they will trouble to listen to the odd hour or three which happens to attract interest now and again.

The problem the station faces is that one of its main raison d’êtres has disappeared. The entire range of classical music is there at the click of the button - for free if you don’t mind ads. So its role has to be as an educator , a selector, a guide through the mire of endless provision. And at a time where the general level of musical education is not what it might be to put it tactfully. So that does mean snippets , excerpts , and trusted voices . Yes I might prefer complete works but I can get that on Qubuz, Amazon Music and Spotify.

This seems to me, au contraire, to be where Radio 3 might make a special contribution in adding more musical analysis, explanations, the Discovering Music, which is exactly what it has abandoned. Instead it chose to expand the range of music - also available elsewhere? I don't know.

Incidentally, and forgive me for this personal note, it was only on reading another post I realised that French Frank is a woman and not a man. Have I got that right ? Forgive me if not . Whatever -always a pleasure to exchange views!

Probably the moustache fooled you. Someone will no doubt point out that a French franc is now obsolete, though in the early days I had hoped I might be coadjutor with German mark, but in those days Mark chose to use his own name. The exchange of views is always a pleasure, especially arguments which delve into 'What I prefer' or 'I enjoy it'. The BBC could turn Radio 3 into Radio 3 Chill and there would be millions who would then think it was better than it used to be.

[gurnemanz]

You are right in many respects FF, but I find I am listening to Radio 3 more and more.

Likewise. For a start, being retired, I am now an all-day listener and I continue to be grateful for what R3 has contributed to my cultural experience over a lifetime, now more than ever. Eg, I rarely miss the lunchtime concerts, especially if it is a song recital. No dumbing down there.

As a new convert to classical music, I first started listening to Third Prog/R3 as a teenager in the 60s and have been there ever since, (except when I lived in Germany for five years in the 70s). In those early, supposedly halcyon days I did not actually tune in so often. Even as a person of "of taste, of intelligence, and of education", thereby a member of the lofty Reithian target audience, as defined above, I will admit that I found a lot of it worthy but dull. Although I loved Hans Keller, there were often more exciting things to do. You could hardly listen to R3 in the evening because medium wave reception was so poor. Its transmission was periodically interrupted by Open University and cricket commentary.

With little money, I used to borrow LPs form the library to get to know new stuff which interested me - Götterdämmerung/Solti and Wolf Lieder with Fischer-Dieskau/Moore come to mind, because I recorded them onto reel-to-reel tape for extended listening. Illegal, I'm sure, but they haven't caught up with me yet.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Likewise. For a start, being retired, I am now an all-day listener and I continue to be grateful for what R3 has contributed to my cultural experience over a lifetime, now more than ever. Eg, I rarely miss the lunchtime concerts, especially if it is a song recital. No dumbing down there.

As a new convert to classical music, I first started listening to Third Prog/R3 as a teenager in the 60s and have been there ever since, (except when I lived in Germany for five years in the 70s). In those early, supposedly halcyon days I did not actually tune in so often. Even as a person of "of taste, of intelligence, and of education", thereby a member of the lofty Reithian target audience, as defined above, I will admit that I found a lot of it worthy but dull. Although I loved Hans Keller, there were often more exciting things to do. You could hardly listen to R3 in the evening because medium wave reception was so poor. Its transmission was periodically interrupted by Open University and cricket commentary.

With little money, I used to borrow LPs form the library to get to know new stuff which interested me - Götterdämmerung/Solti and Wolf Lieder with Fischer-Dieskau/Moore come to mind, because I recorded them onto reel-to-reel tape for extended listening. Illegal, I'm sure, but they haven't caught up with me yet.

What things to do are more exciting than Hans Keller ?

Keller Thou Shouldst Be Living At This Hour …
England hath need of thee
I’m not sure whether I’m joking or not…

[oddoneout]

I think what’s happened is much about general cultural decline isn’t it ? Any one writing that manifesto now would be dismissed as completely out of touch with modern cultural trends. I once ventured the opinion at work that one novel might possibly better than another to hear the argument ( last heard in the sixth form ) that my statement was a value judgement, entirely subjective and of no more value than any one else’s . The fact that I’d read approximately 1,000 novels including more or less the entire corpus of classic (value judgement again) English, American and European fiction counted for nothing . But Tolstoy is a greater novelist than Jeffrey Archer isn’t he ?


Interestingly even when the Third Programme was created there were plenty of intellectuals who considered even its lofty ideals just not lofty enough . F.R Leavis was very critical of its literature coverage believing it very much in the pocket of metropolitan critics log rolling for their mates . Now very few people have the courage to say one work of art might be better than another for fear of being thought elitist . So now instead of studying Shakespeare. Eliot , Austen or Chaucer sixth formers are forced to read a lot of third rate contemporary fiction.


I still think there is much to admire on Radio Three . Tonight for example a 3 and a half hour relay of Tannhauser or indeed the record review with David Owen Norris now on The Elgar Violin Concerto. The problem the station faces is that one of its main raison d’êtres has disappeared. The entire range of classical music is there at the click of the button - for free if you don’t mind ads. So its role has to be as an educator , a selector, a guide through the mire of endless provision. And at a time where the general level of musical education is not what it might be to put it tactfully. So that does mean snippets , excerpts , and trusted voices . Yes I might prefer complete works but I can get that on Qubuz, Amazon Music and Spotify.


Incidentally , and forgive me for this personal note, it was only on reading another post I realised that French Frank is a woman and not a man. Have I got that right ? Forgive me if not . Whatever -always a pleasure to exchange views!

This for me is the nub of the problem, and it goes beyond my irritation with R3. I find BBC TV's factual output deeply unsatisfactory and now rarely watch the documentaries or so-called factual series. There are some notable and honourable exceptions, but they serve only to highlight what I feel is lacking in the rest.
At work I am constantly confronted by this uneasy(and often self-defeating) attempt to reconcile changing demands(perceived or otherwise) and the core of what the site should, in an ideal world, be doing. It isn't an ideal world and so the site has to be a "visitor attraction" to try and cater for a wide enough audience to both acquire a future following and serve those already able to access less "dressed-up" information, and keep up the visitor numbers to justify at least some of its running costs. It is an uneasy compromise and more times than we as staff would like fails to serve each end of the spectrum satisfactorily, but we are at liberty to express our views (which are after all for the most part reporting what the visitors tell us), suggest ways to improve the situation, and in some cases to influence what happens. That involvement and element of "ownership" for want of a better term goes a long way to mitigating the problems of what we end up with. We cannot do much about whatever the current fashion is for interpretation and presentation of social and political history, nor the effects of educational policy on standards of literacy and knowledge, but we can, sometimes, do something about trying to ensure that we don't actively alienate certain groups of visitors.
This is the bit which I feel is lacking from the BBC's approach to R3, and applies in equal part I would suggest to the ends of the spectrum expressed by FF and jonfan, as well as the middle ground. I don't get any feeling that management either knows or cares about the R3 listeners it actually has, wherever on that spectrum they fall; what we get is whatever the current fad/target/political tick-box happens to be. To say that such content is available by other means rather misses the point as far as I'm concerned. Even if I had all the necessary bits of kit to access the music, drama, analysis etc I don't think it would be a substitute for having a selection of such material all in one place at the click of a button, which can present items that I would never have come across by self-selection - and is also a convenient source of listening when the brain just doesn't want the heavy lifting of having to both find and choose!
But then again, R3 doesn't exist to provide me with an acceptable listening experience. I just wish its current approach didn't seem so far away from what I think it could and should be doing, which I have expressed many times on various threads, and to Auntie directly, and which does not involve perpetuating the elitist myth. More generally it seems does the BBC no longer exists to provide high quality factually informed (rather than politically and socially tick-box acceptable) output so the hopes for R3 are a non-starter really aren't they?
I need to go and do something to get out of grump mode I think.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Odd one out - there is something very paradoxical going on. On paper at least we have never had such a highly educated public with many more graduates than 50 years ago and very high rates of literacy . At the same time it has never been cheaper to access high (for want of a better word) art and culture and there has never been more available. Free galleries and museums , streaming services , Wiki, IMSLP , you name it. The problem is that cultural leaders , public intellectuals have more or less completely lost faith in the idea of cultural discrimination or rather in the propagation of that idea. Secretly they know that Wagner is a better composer than Neil Sedaka but they daren’t say it.So they retreat behind cobblers like “it all depends what you mean by better “

The only regular criticism you hear on mainstream Media now is that doled out by Gary Lineker and Alan Shearer on Match of the Day . For some reason sports still insists on neo-Arnoldian standards of performance .

If only we had that in other areas of the media

[french frank]

Since this has become a discussion which has more depth than some, yes to oddoneout's:

R3 doesn't exist to provide me with an acceptable listening experience.

(for 'me' read 'and me'). We have no option but to accept what is happening, even though we see a valuable loss in it all.
And Heldenleben's:

cultural leaders , public intellectuals have more or less completely lost faith in the idea of cultural discrimination or rather in the propagation of that idea

And this is where Haley and the BBC differed back then: they did feel that there was something they weren't providing, and that the Third Programme was to fill a gap. With all the music available from various sources, Radio 3 doesn't fill a gap: it simply provides that one-click convenient package in a single place.

The fact that we value cultural interests that are diminishing in public support isn't a good outlook for those current 'honourable exceptions' either.