Hey Guv can you lend us a fiver?

[Serial_Apologist]

To what do you refer? I never made any suggestion about telling people from birth that they are intrinsically flawed. To take an analogy: untamed, uneducated human nature cannot make someone a safe driver on modern roads. Education, training and some rules of the road that apply to all drivers are also required. To say that is not to tell learner drivers that they are flawed.

Philip, earlier you said human nature was part of the problem. That idea is drummed into us from birth. It is not universally accepted as so. I think you are confusing what you describe as human nature with training. Don't forget, people can be trained into doing terrible things.

[PhilipT]

Philip, earlier you said human nature was part of the problem. That idea is drummed into us from birth. It is not universally accepted as so. I think you are confusing what you describe as human nature with training. Don't forget, people can be trained into doing terrible things.

No, I don't think I'm confused at all. Yes, people can be trained to do terrible things, but I hope we are agreed that that's not what's happened here. My point is that untrained, uneducated, unconstrained human nature is hopelessly inadequate to cope with modern society. That is not an indictment of human nature, it is a comment about the complexity and challenges of modern society. Human nature was inadequate to cope with society as it was several thousand years ago, which is why someone thought it a good idea to dream up the Ten Commandments. What has happened in recent years is that societies have become denser and more complex at the same time as the moral frameworks they require to function has weakened.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

on the whole i take your point philipT but i think that the moral order has been eroded by the relentless plutocracy of our anglo american capital forces ... such as the moral order was or might be .... the immorality of the masses has been a constant complaint down the ages ... what might be new is the erosion of any discernible morality in the power elites .?

[Serial_Apologist]

No, I don't think I'm confused at all. Yes, people can be trained to do terrible things, but I hope we are agreed that that's not what's happened here. My point is that untrained, uneducated, unconstrained human nature is hopelessly inadequate to cope with modern society. That is not an indictment of human nature, it is a comment about the complexity and challenges of modern society. Human nature was inadequate to cope with society as it was several thousand years ago, which is why someone thought it a good idea to dream up the Ten Commandments. What has happened in recent years is that societies have become denser and more complex at the same time as the moral frameworks they require to function has weakened.

Agree with this though I think it's secondary. Also with calum #63. The Japanese seem able though to coexist comparaitively peacably with high-density.

[eighthobstruction]

Sociologically, isn't what you talked about earlier called 'C stream tail'....you tell/drum the C stream that they are no hopers and they live up to it....

[PhilipT]

Agree with this though I think it's secondary. Also with calum #63. The Japanese seem able though to coexist comparaitively peacably with high-density.

Secondary to what? Needless to say I think it's fundamental.

May I suggest that the reason the Japanese continue to co-exist peaceably is that their moral code (some parts of which we might take issue with) has not been eroded in recent years in the same way as in Anglo-Saxon societies, with the result that their society is more resilient to challenges? I don't recall stories of widespread looting following the tsunami. Quite the opposite - the show of a sense of duty to society by those older Japanese who volunteered to work in a high-radiation environment to help clean up the aftermath of the damage to the nuclear reactors is particularly striking.

[Serial_Apologist]

Secondary to what? Needless to say I think it's fundamental.

May I suggest that the reason the Japanese continue to co-exist peaceably is that their moral code (some parts of which we might take issue with) has not been eroded in recent years in the same way as in Anglo-Saxon societies, with the result that their society is more resilient to challenges? I don't recall stories of widespread looting following the tsunami. Quite the opposite - the show of a sense of duty to society by those older Japanese who volunteered to work in a high-radiation environment to help clean up the aftermath of the damage to the nuclear reactors is particularly striking.

I meant secondary to the forces shaping what you abstractly describe as "human nature".

I think we are at cross-purposes Philip, at least partly down to me for thread hopping all day; and I will be away from my computer for much of tomorrow. I apoligise. Perhaps we can pursue this some other time, or under the aegis of another thread.

S-A

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er shaping behaviour ...



from here

and the original research paper here

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

very interesting feature on Newsnight last night, starts 14'20" in ... based on Charles Moore's observations on the failings of the right ... i find Finklestein panglossian and Noreena Hertz interesting but Moore has a simple and clear message which no one has yet confronted ...btw it is naivety to assert that bankers and MPs 'caused' the riots .... but they did create the impression that looking after No 1 at the expense of everyone else was the ok thing .... and i think this is what Moore is saying

[scottycelt]

Philip, earlier you said human nature was part of the problem. That idea is drummed into us from birth. It is not universally accepted as so. I think you are confusing what you describe as human nature with training. Don't forget, people can be trained into doing terrible things.

No, S-A, a big part of the problem is that idea is no longer 'drummed into us from birth'. Human nature does contain a darker side and we are deluding ourselves if we believe otherwise.

When a thug hits an old lady over the head with a hammer and steals her handbag, some on the Left blame greedy bankers and the Right says it's because thugs haven't been brought up 'proper', and it's all the parents fault. Nowadays we must find 'reasons' and convenient scapegoats and it's called 'the blame culture'.

Few seem to say that those who do wrong by breaking the law might simply do so for greedy, selfish motives of their own, and if they don't respond to pleas to change their ways that is solely their responsibility, and, accordingly, there is no need to look around for others to blame.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well establishing culpability is one thing scotty celt, but why persistently confuse this with the attempt to understand what leads people to do the things they do ..... there are many routes to hitting old ladies on the head with hammers ... you offer one of many plausible explanations and your concept of evil is by no means undisputed nor uniquely plausible as explanation ...many of us are not looking for people to blame, we are not seeking culpability .... eg the absence of effective deterrent is deeply implicated in many criminal behaviours .... the failure of empathy and so on ... many coal miners deliberately broke all sorts of laws in their struggle to avert pit closures was this evil?

and perfectly 'normal and decent' people can be readily manipulated into great evils as Milgram and Zimbardo have shown i do not find that the expression of frustration and blame through institutional punishment at all satisfactory for understanding what is going on .... nor do i seek to control my own rages and impulses by wishing punishment on offenders

[scottycelt]

well establishing culpability is one thing scotty celt, but why persistently confuse this with the attempt to understand what leads people to do the things they do ..... there are many routes to hitting old ladies on the head with hammers ... you offer one of many plausible explanations ...many coal miners deliberately broke all sorts of laws in their struggle to avert pit closures was this evil? ...

What leads people to do the things they do ..?

If you mean evil things, I consider the root cause to be selfishness and lack of concern for others.

I would naturally prefer the rather more objective and neutral word 'consistency' to the headmasterly-sounding 'persistency' if you don't mind , and there is no obvious confusion on my part or any frantic search for a more convenient 'explanation'.

I also don't condone miners or anyone else breaking laws in a democratic society even though, personally, I may well disapprove of some (laws).

How we successfully stop ourselves, never mind anyone else, being selfish is another matter altogether, as it's an ingrained human condition, I fear.

Has that now cleared up any confusion elsewhere ... ?

[handsomefortune]

> perfectly 'normal and decent' people can be readily manipulated into great evils <

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1WkmioQvA

[Serial_Apologist]

> perfectly 'normal and decent' people can be readily manipulated into great evils <


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1WkmioQvA

Thanks for reminding us of that very good series, handsomefortune. Its thesis follows very much on from a speech I heard by Jules Henry at the Dialectics of Liberation Congress, way back in 1967. What perpetually baffles me is the utter contempt with which quite ordinary, often highly intelligent people treat others, for no apparent reason. Some of it on boards such as this. I'm coming to the conclusion that the worst aspects of human nature are the ones that bring out the worst in me.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree by and large with what you say here calum; however...

perfectly 'normal and decent' people can be readily manipulated into great evils as Milgram and Zimbardo have shown

Not familiar with Zimbardo, but one thing the Milgram (and subsequent similar) experiments showed was that the people led to commit ostensible acts of physical cruelty were encouraged to do so by an "authority" figure. Taking the metaphorical Adam figure out of his Garden of Eden, in order mischievously to misrepresent scottycelt's view of human nature for a moment, I don't recall anyone being around at the Dawn of Mankind [sic] wearing a uniform.