Hey Guv can you lend us a fiver?

[MrGongGong]

Surely its time we joined the Euro and got the Germans to run the economy ?
If one was looking for a country that has the experience of recovering from economic hardship then they seem to have done very well
WW2 onwards, re-unification etc

rather than these daft Eton boys who seem to think that because they were tuck monitor ...........

[Serial_Apologist]

Surely its time we joined the Euro and got the Germans to run the economy ?
If one was looking for a country that has the experience of recovering from economic hardship then they seem to have done very well
WW2 onwards, re-unification etc

rather than these daft Eton boys who seem to think that because they were tuck monitor ...........

But remember there was Marshall Aid... and Germany's manufacturing and in frastructure had been decimated - to be replaced by the latest and most productive technology and a workforce made compliant by having representatives on their boards of directors. Meanwhile the British bosses sat on their asses raking it in, with olde fashioned management attitudes, believing the sun would never set on the Empire.

[aeolium]

And also Germany has benefited from the disequilibrium in the badly designed eurozone, exporting to now heavily indebted eurozone countries. As for joining the Euro that would be absolute madness now (and I don't see any British politician advocating it) - the failures in the design of the eurozone have transformed an already critical financial crisis into a disaster of titanic proportions, and it is quite difficult to see a solution to it that will not cause massive social and economic disruption.

I am an admirer of the society that Germany has built from the ruins of the last war, but I think one can go too far in automatically praising everything in continental Europe and attacking everything British, which seems to me as absurd an attitude as the reverse, Little Englander xenophobia. Yes, politicians here have made plenty of mistakes in the last 3 decades especially, but so they have in Europe. That attitude also airbrushes away the history of totalitarianism that dominated Europe in the first half of the last century, which would apart from the efforts of allies including Britain have resulted in a much darker form of currency union operating in Europe. I think history and the endurance of historical memory are always underestimated by those who seek to forge political and economic constructs based on theory alone.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the British bosses sat on their asses raking it in, with olde fashioned management attitudes,

many still do S_A

Michael Edwardes wrote a book about his experiences at British Leyland which is one of the most worth reading books by such an author .... his description of BL management when he arrived is classic 'Back from the brink' is available used for 1p on the big river .... well worth a dip ...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

this is happening here too

[Serial_Apologist]

many still do S_A

Michael Edwardes wrote a book about his experiences at British Leyland which is one of the most worth reading books by such an author .... his description of BL management when he arrived is classic 'Back from the brink' is available used for 1p on the big river .... well worth a dip ...

He learned his management skills in apartheid S Africa didn't he? If so, certainly not worth 1p.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

oh S_A how disappointing of you ..... don't let prejudice get in the way of discovery eh .... Edwardes book is an intelligent and analytical piece of good quality ... fyi he was and i guess still is a highly meritocratic individual ... with a refreshing lack of the status nonsense of british management in the 70s ...

[teamsaint]

this is happening here too

yes.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/09/index.shtml?2

it is.

[BetweenTheStaves]

Reading this thread has been a very profoundly depressing experience. Not because of the subject matter but because seemingly intelligent and educated members have filled 15 pages with the same moans and selective links, exhibit the same naivety when it comes to economics and yet not one of you, as far as I can see, have actually proposed anything to address what you perceive to be as injustice.

So what are your gripes? Bankers bonuses. Have to agree with you there but I'd point the finger at Labour who bailed the banks out in the first place but without putting in place any mechanism for restraining their bonuses. But it's not just the bankers but lawyers, footballers and radio. TV presenters like Jonathan Ross. So just how are you going to restrain this excess? Legislation?

And where has this myth come from that Forex trading is untaxed? It is.

Corporate greed? The phrase sounds like one of the more emotive headliners by that bastion of impartiality, the Guardian. What do any of you mean by this ? Companies making profits? Gosh. Maybe those profits just might go towards investing in new plant for the future. To provide jobs. Or maybe to generate the dividends that go to prop up your pension fund?

Rich get rich, the poor get poorer. Really? Any unbiased academic research available? OK...assume it is true. Then what do you propose? Take all the money from those HNWI and redistribute it? How are you going to do that? Equally between the world's population? Have you done the sums? Done the research? Works out at about $0.01 per person.

Without any positive alternative suggestions, this thread is as pointless as those playing at protests outside St Pauls who slink off to their comfortably warm homes at night leaving 9 out of 10 tents empty.
The root problem is too many people on this over-populated planet.

[teamsaint]

Reading this thread has been a very profoundly depressing experience. Not because of the subject matter but because seemingly intelligent and educated members have filled 15 pages with the same moans and selective links, exhibit the same naivety when it comes to economics and yet not one of you, as far as I can see, have actually proposed anything to address what you perceive to be as injustice.

So what are your gripes? Bankers bonuses. Have to agree with you there but I'd point the finger at Labour who bailed the banks out in the first place but without putting in place any mechanism for restraining their bonuses. But it's not just the bankers but lawyers, footballers and radio. TV presenters like Jonathan Ross. So just how are you going to restrain this excess? Legislation?

And where has this myth come from that Forex trading is untaxed? It is.

Corporate greed? The phrase sounds like one of the more emotive headliners by that bastion of impartiality, the Guardian. What do any of you mean by this ? Companies making profits? Gosh. Maybe those profits just might go towards investing in new plant for the future. To provide jobs. Or maybe to generate the dividends that go to prop up your pension fund?

Rich get rich, the poor get poorer. Really? Any unbiased academic research available? OK...assume it is true. Then what do you propose? Take all the money from those HNWI and redistribute it? How are you going to do that? Equally between the world's population? Have you done the sums? Done the research? Works out at about $0.01 per person.

Without any positive alternative suggestions, this thread is as pointless as those playing at protests outside St Pauls who slink off to their comfortably warm homes at night leaving 9 out of 10 tents empty.
The root problem is too many people on this over-populated planet.

Its reading posts like this that are the profoundly depressing thing.
All research everywhere screams out about income and wealth inequality growing, a bad thing in both moral and practical terms.
Lets start with the banks. The bonuses are just one small aspect. Th real issue, as is being shown all too clearly day after day, is that they are completely in control of our economies. They act utterly irresponsibly,(EGsub prime lending) because of greed, and at every opportunity take quite astronomical sums of public money because they are deemed too big to fail. The latest £75 BN went straight into their balance sheets, and thats just the latest one.

corporate greed: there are plenty of stats that show salaries at the top increasing enormously, while salaries elsewhere stagnate, and workers are expected to run themselves into the ground, or do higher level work for the same pay to keep their job.I could give you personal examples, but I won't bore you.As for dividends to pay pensions, well thats just insulting really. i don't know anybody in the private sector who is working now, who has a pension of any worth to look forward to. They have been destroyed by the corporate greed that saw big companies taking long payment holidays in the good times, and in the "race to the bottom" on pension terms.
I am 49, and at best I will get a meagre state pension when i am 68, probably later. Many of my parents generation were retired at around 55.I have always worked, paid every penny of tax on time.

Over population, well this is just a handy tool for those wishing to preserve their status. All decent surveys suggest that he earth can comfortably support 9bn plus. What it can't actually suppport is countries like the US with 5% of the population using 20% plus of the resources.

some answers?
For the uK:
Increase minimum wages.
Increase the tax threshold to 12k.
increase benefits.
switch taxes to higher rates of direct tax on non essential goods.
Increase property taxes on the top 10%,(especially on land) and close income tax loopholes and increase rates for those on over £100k.(for the footballers and Jonathon Ross issue)
Create jobs by putting spending power into the pockets of ordinary people.
Stimulate the economy by public spending on small scale , and self funding projects, eg Buses not HS2.
Build lots of houses.
There are plenty of alternatives. Its very convenient for you to believe that "there is no alternative". There are lots.
I am sorry to say this, but your post suggests that you utterly fail to understand what life is like for a lot of people. People who are poor do not choose it, they are kept in poverty by the choices of those with power.We will reap what we sow, and the smugness of a certain group of well off people just cannot be allowed to set the agenda any more.
Oh, and its not "percieved injustice" its real, actual injustice.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well put teamsaint

Andrew Haldane, executive director of the Bank of England in charge of "financial stability", in a speech this week reviewing the development of banking over the past 150 years, which is an illuminating exercise if one is to understand today's circumstances, remarked flatly: "For a century, both risks and returns have been high. But while the risks have typically been borne by wider society, the returns have been harvested by bank shareholders and managers."

from this opinion piece

betweenthestaves is making similar disparaging remarks to the NuLab lot about literacy rates in the UK, one of the single most important aducational standards that we could seek to improve in view of worsening inequality

and the essence of this thread is evidence bts, not opinion, so go find some

...and how is forex trading taxed per transaction? do not give me the joke of banks and corporation tax, remember Diamonds Disgrace before the House of Commons when the tax bill he quoted was essentially just the PAYE bill for the bank's staff .... or the recent 'easement' of £10m for Goldman Sachs .... wish i could negotiate that sort of arrangement for my partner who is living in Mr Micawber's misery on TA wages because HMRC is clawing back £2k with a peremptory disregard for her circumstances even though they got the coding wrong [and the many thousands like her]

it is not this thread that is profoundly depressing but the country we live in ...

[amateur51]

Very well put, teamsaint

Almost every post on here is supported by a link, BTS - do you ever bother to read them?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

crimes and misdemeanours in the USA


has anyone compiled a similar catalogue in the UK?

[Serial_Apologist]

oh S_A how disappointing of you ..... don't let prejudice get in the way of discovery eh .... Edwardes book is an intelligent and analytical piece of good quality ... fyi he was and i guess still is a highly meritocratic individual ... with a refreshing lack of the status nonsense of british management in the 70s ...

I only asked.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Robinson_(trade_unionist)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/693309.stm

"The pressures were immense but were it not for the ideological understanding that I had, I could very well have had a nervous breakdown".

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

"executive largesse is evenly spread across the board".

directors pay has risen by 50% this last year