Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur
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I'm sorry, but the more I read the clues the more confused I get....
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Sorry, the key really is simple. With hindsight, the date limitations were an unnecessary complicationOriginally posted by LMcD View PostI'm sorry, but the more I read the clues the more confused I get.... They were put in in order to give specific works as targets.
My exhortation to LMcD a few posts ago to check his spelling really should be followed up!Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 17-12-18, 10:24.I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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Me too and I am way, way out of my comfort zone ....... it’s not all about the Italian spelling of Jerusalem/Jérusalem is it .... ????Originally posted by LMcD View PostI'm sorry, but the more I read the clues the more confused I get....Comment
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Another dust and ashes moment for LMP! Possibly what I'd taken to a be a proper work-title for my cryptic composer (probably the earliest one to satisfy my stipulations) may not appear on the original score, even though Wiki and Amazon treat it as such.
I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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BULLSEYE! Now find me a few suitable works and explain how the Verdi fits.Originally posted by antongould View PostI keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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Oh excellent off out now with a list of jobs but I am sure others can finish it off .......Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View PostComment
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Yes to both, though I feel a tad guilty about the former - see #3004. Verdi - how no J? One more after these will do it. Someone mentioned Scarlatti...Originally posted by LMcD View PostI keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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Scarlatti : Sedecia, re di Gerusalemme.Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
Verdi's opera was originally entitled 'I Lombardi Alla Prima Crociata'Comment
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PREPARED DEFENCE STATEMENT (For use in court if necessary
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The puzzle hinged simply on the fact that not all works with Jerusalem in the title spell it that way. The stipulations as to dates and genre were intended to create some of the specific target answers that this thread really demands.
The Italian form Gerusalemme was what set me going. Putting this into Amazon brought up quite a few examples, most prominent among them Verdi’s Gerusalemme. Initially I assumed <DOHICON> that Verdi as an Italian composer wrote this first in Italian and then made the French version Jérusalem, hence my qualification in the question as to what ‘pedants’ might say. But not so, the Paris version came first, rather like Don Carlo(s). I endeavoured to correct this misdirection in #2975. Jérusalem was first staged in Paris in 1847. Later Verdi sold the Italian rights to Ricordi who published it as Gerusalemme. Recordings exist under both titles.
The Amazon website flagged up A. Scarlatti’s opera Sedecia, re di Gerusalemme and G. de Wert’s madrigal set La Gerusalemme Liberata, while further Googling came up with a Carlo Pallovicini opera with the GL title. There’s also an opera libretto of the same name by one Righini, so how many more such operas await attention, or even discovery?
All this set me pondering the influence of Tasso’s Gerusalemme Liberata (1581) on the great general upsurge after this date of operas and other vocal works dealing with the Palestinian land, the crusades, Jerusalem, kings of Jerusalem etc, e.g. Scarlatti’s Sedecia. I guess it was absolutely key for this, even in works with no direct influence of GL in plot and characters. Hence the issue for possible future discussion mentioned in #2983.
Once I posted the puzzle Pulcinella was swiftly off the blocks in #2958, raising the issue of spellings in other languages. Perhaps he got downhearted when I said in #2959 that Ierusalem wasn’t the answer but I did award him a cigar, even if the way I did it caused confusion LMcD in #2962 spotted 1581 as the date of publication of GL. But sadly he referred to it only by its English title, otherwise the path to the answer would surely have been far shorter!
Vinteuil in #2964 then posted a link to a long Wiki list of musical works inspired by GL. This included two with Gerusalemme in the title. My #2965 and 68 flagged this list as ‘helpful’ and suggested a further look at the original question, while #2969 encouraged further thought on alternative spellings. LMcD’s #2970 brought in Verdi’s Jerusalem, which I acknowledged in #2971 but said a bit more work on it was necessary (to get rid of that J of course!), as again for Pulc at #2977 and #2978 with further reference in #2994.
The cryptic clue in #2984 and #2990, ‘Composer content to deride Werther’, was based on the ‘content’ (n. not adj.) to (= of) ‘deride Werther’, i.e. Giaches de Wert, the very first entry in Vints’s GL Wiki list.
The answers so far discovered all use the Italian form Gerusalemme. But are there other languages where a J-spelling isn’t available, maybe generating another pile of possible solutions? Hence some of my probably over-cautious answers.
As stated at #2997, the Italian alphabet does have a J but makes little use of it, mainly in words of foreign origin. Wiki lists Italian composers J for Jacchini, Jacopo da Bologna, Jannacci, Jannaccini and Jomelli only. (One of the many things I've learnt in the course of this thread...)
And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all readers!I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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... Italianists will also recall the earlier use of j as a vowel or semivowel in cases such as jattanza, pajo, beccajo, and as a plural form of -io, eg ufficio, ufficj; principio, principj. And visitors to Rome will surely wish to visit the Doria Pamphilj gallery -
also the other Pamphilj palazzo in Albano -
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Not at all: just (as I think Anna Russell said) as befogged as before as the other contributions came along.Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View PostPREPARED DEFENCE STATEMENT (For use in court if necessary)
The puzzle hinged simply on the fact that not all works with Jerusalem in the title spell it that way. The stipulations as to dates and genre were intended to create some of the specific target answers that this thread really demands.
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Once I posted the puzzle Pulcinella was swiftly off the blocks in #2958, raising the issue of spellings in other languages. Perhaps he got downhearted when I said in #2959 that Ierusalem wasn’t the answer but I did award him a cigar, even if the way I did it caused confusion LMcD in #2962 spotted 1581 as the date of publication of GL. But sadly he referred to it only by its English title, otherwise the path to the answer would surely have been far shorter!
And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all readers!
Many thanks for such a comprehensive explanation.
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Isn't the last 'numeral' in a Roman numeral set sometimes a j instead of an i?Originally posted by vinteuil View Post.
... Italianists will also recall the earlier use of j as a vowel or semivowel in cases such as jattanza, pajo, beccajo, and as a plural form of -io, eg ufficio, ufficj; principio, principj. And visitors to Rome will surely wish to visit the Doria Pamphilj gallery -
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So we might see xiij for 13 not xiii?Comment
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Difficult to choose the most appropriate setter for K. Probably LMcD?
But only if he has proper roots in Kernow to give us three in a row...
I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!Comment
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Nadelik Lowen, LMP. A K from LMcD methinks. Mind you what do I know having been totally mizzled by your J.Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View PostDifficult to choose the most appropriate setter for K. Probably LMcD?
But only if he has proper roots in Kernow to give us three in a row...Comment
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