Dishwasher tablets - getting the balance right - phosphates

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 17872

    Dishwasher tablets - getting the balance right - phosphates

    Prompted by various issues recently, we have been trying out different dishwasher tablets. Some do seem better than others, though it's not always easy to tell.

    One brand which seemed to be highly recommended a few years ago is the Coop All in One Lemon - and indeed it does seem to produce good results, and gives a shiny appearance to cups, glasses etc.

    However, looking at the composition, that particular brand has a significant proportion of phosphates. In trying to find out which tablets might be good, I looked at several Which reports, and there are comments about a range of dishwasher tablets in reports over the last few years. Few, if any, of the reports mention phosphates. It now seems clear to me that under some circumstances products with phosphates may do a better cleaning job. So what's the problem?

    The problem is that detergent products, such as washing products and dishwasher products which contain certain compounds, including phosphates, when released into the external environment and water supplies provide nutrients for organisms which are considered undesirable. A particular problem is the encouragement of algal bloom on lakes. In the USA there seems to have been some progress towards restricting the availability and use of products which can have this undesirable effect on the environment.

    I am currently not so aware of actions which may have been taken in the EU to minimise the environmental effect of products such as phosphate containing washing products, but it does seem that some balancing is required. It may be that there is effective legislation or regulation in the EU, but that many of us are just not aware of it.

    I have not singled out the Coop diswasher tablet brand for any special reason, other than that I happened to note that it contains a significant proportion of phosphates. It is very likely that some others are similar, and it may be that the ones which appear to give the best washing results are also the ones which have a greater proportion of phosphates, and perhaps, as a consequence, a greater potential for environmental damage.

    Some washing products are noted as being phosphate free - but they may not be so effective at washing! Raising awareness, and getting a balance could be important. It is unfortunate that Which, an organisation which tests out products, does not seem to have taken this into account when doing their testing - though I may have missed reference to such. Nevertheless it would be helpful if product reviews by Which and other organisations could take environmental concerns into account as well as other aspects of product effectiveness.

    Getting the balance "right" - whatever that is - can be hard, as some products which have been modified over the last couple of decades are now considerably less effective than their predecessors, which presumably had other significant undesirable effects, either on humans or the environment generally.
  • umslopogaas
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1977

    #2
    Interesting. A few rather random thoughts, which can be summed up as a feeling that you are worrying un-necessarily. Firstly, phosphates are an essential plant nutrient, plants would die without them. Therefore, huge amounts are applied to the wider environment as fertiliser by farmers, horticulturalists and gardeners. Secondly, the water from your dishwasher goes down the drain, into the sewers and ends up in the sewage works where it is processed. Very little of your dishwasher phosphate actually ends up in the environment directly. I suspect that all the extracted pollutants from sewage end up on a dump at the works, and therefore do eventually leach into the immediate environment. But I also suspect that the contamination is localised, and the amount is dwarfed by the quantities used by agriculture.

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 17872

      #3
      You are right that a certain release of phosphates would "simply" add nutrients to the environment, which would be consumed by plants and other living organisms. The problem can be that the rate at which "benign" living things consume the nutrients may not be high enough, and this can allow less desirable effects, such as algal bloom, to occur.

      You are probably right also that there is a far greater release from agriculture.

      Re the water processing, apparently this can put an unwanted load on sewage and water processing plants. Whether this is significant in the UK I can't say. Maybe it's less of a problem in a country such as the UK where under normal conditions there is sufficient or even an excess of water.

      It is certainly the case that in the USA the problems, if they exist, are recognised and there are now regulations which I believe have been applied on a state by state basis.

      I think there may have been some action in the EU, possibly in response to some previous algal bloom incidents, but I'm not really sure. My hunch is that dishwasher tablets with some phosphates do a better job, but whether every wash needs to use them is perhaps questionable. Similar considerations may apply to clothes washing in washing machines.

      Comment

      • Pulcinella
        Host
        • Feb 2014
        • 10285

        #4
        I use powder, with dishwasher salt and rinse-aid, because I can then regulate the dose more easily.
        Although some supermarket own brands claimed to be as good as the top brand (whatever that was!) I found that not to be the case, and reverted to Classic Finish.
        The phosphate content listed on the label is in a surprisingly wide range: 15--30%!
        I wonder why it is not more specific.

        Comment

        • Nick Armstrong
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 26350

          #5
          No dishwashing machine at Château Caliban, which rather solves the problem; so my only contribution here is to correct the thread title - done!
          "...the isle is full of noises,
          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

          Comment

          • Dave2002
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 17872

            #6
            We are natural cheapskates, and often use the cheapest tablets from Lidl, or sometimes Aldi, though sometimes the results are not as good as some other tablets. This keeps the cost per tablet to around 6p, or maybe 9p if the all in one tablets bought on offer are used.

            However, the results from some of the Coop, Fairy or even Finish tablets can be very good - but the price per tablet can easily go up to 15p or more. The Which advice seemed to be that some of the "best" branded names were too expensive, but could be good buys on special offers - half prices or better.

            Currently we have a selection of tablets, and are using them according to the desired outcome. There's not a great deal of point in using expensive tablets when the various items to be washed are already looking pretty good, or maybe for pans etc. - and yes, we do have some expensive tablets, but only bought on offers. For many purposes the cheapest Lidl tablets are good enough. A run through with one of the others seems to restore the shine if it drops off.

            The reason for the investigation is that we were concerned that many items were coming wet out of the machine, even though the kitchen is normally warm enough., and we tried to see if using different tablets would make a difference.

            It does help to make sure that salt and rinse aid levels are kept topped up in the machine.

            Comment

            • Dave2002
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 17872

              #7
              Originally posted by Caliban View Post
              No dishwashing machine at Château Caliban, which rather solves the problem; so my only contribution here is to correct the thread title - done!
              What was wrong with it? Did I make a spelling mistake - blindness setting in! Thanks anyway.

              Comment

              • Don Petter

                #8
                Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                No dishwashing machine at Château Caliban, which rather solves the problem; so my only contribution here is to correct the thread title - done!
                Now the contributors will never see i to i

                Comment

                • Petrushka
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 12014

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                  No dishwashing machine at Château Caliban,
                  Nor at Petrushka Towers. The only problem I have with dishwashing is that, despite living alone, I seem to spend half my life doing it!
                  "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

                  Comment

                  • french frank
                    Administrator/Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 29547

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                    Nor at Petrushka Towers. The only problem I have with dishwashing is that, despite living alone, I seem to spend half my life doing it!
                    Similar here - I just take exactly what the doctor prescribes.
                    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                    Comment

                    • Pulcinella
                      Host
                      • Feb 2014
                      • 10285

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                      It does help to make sure that salt and rinse aid levels are kept topped up in the machine.
                      Could part of the problem be that you have used too much salt or rinse aid if you are using all-in-one tablets and haven't disabled your salt and rinse aid dispensers?
                      I live in a hard water region, so prefer the powder and my own (adjustable) level of salt and rinse aid.

                      But I still do a lot by hand.
                      Just back from Poundland with two 675 ml bottles of Cusson's Morning Fresh washing-up liquid for £1: now who's a cheapskate?

                      Comment

                      • teamsaint
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 25103

                        #12
                        we had a lot of problems getting white residue on plates etc.
                        seemed to get better when we changed to finish powerball.( available at 100 for£8 in Poundland)

                        But now the machine has packed up, and we might not replace it.
                        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                        I am not a number, I am a free man.

                        Comment

                        • Nick Armstrong
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 26350

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                          What was wrong with it? Did I make a spelling mistake - blindness setting in! Thanks anyway.
                          Twas a mere triifle

                          (Try getting trifle off with your powerballs...)
                          "...the isle is full of noises,
                          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                          Comment

                          • vinteuil
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 12490

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post

                            But I still do a lot by hand.
                            ... I quite like washing up. Relaxing, and a good time for thinking.

                            OCD man that I am, I have various systems - which Mme v doesn't seem to understand... Sadly, she is of the "that'll do... " school

                            Our rule is - three people or fewer for a meal : wash by hand. Four or more - we're allowed to use the dishwasher.

                            We have yet to attain the sophistication exemplified supra as regards different phosphate levels in the tablets...

                            Comment

                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 17872

                              #15
                              Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                              ... I quite like washing up. Relaxing, and a good time for thinking.

                              OCD man that I am, I have various systems - which Mme v doesn't seem to understand... Sadly, she is of the "that'll do... " school

                              Our rule is - three people or fewer for a meal : wash by hand. Four or more - we're allowed to use the dishwasher.

                              We have yet to attain the sophistication exemplified supra as regards different phosphate levels in the tablets...
                              I have heard that in some families washing up is used as an opportunity for social communication, as opposed to those families where there is either no communication, or communication has to be via social media, mobile phones and tablets.

                              Comment

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