Things that time forgot.

[teamsaint]

There was a problem in Barcelona when there were too many basques in one exit!

( Wasn't that Bilbao though ?)

[P. G. Tipps]

But can you explain why you wouldn't?

And given that you wouldn't, how would you react to any man who did it for you?

Certainly, madam, delighted to attempt to expand further ...

As a gentleman is of the same gender as myself it would be quite illogical for me to practice the first procedure, being trained as I was by my father to recognise and respect gender difference as stated previously.

That is not to say, as some contemporary ladies appear to insist, that I think ladies are incapable of opening and closing doors themselves, good heavens, no !. It is purely a sign of respect and deep appreciation that males such as myself are exceedingly fortunate to find ourselves inhabiting this planet alongside those of the female gender.

On your further query, I would have no intrinsic objection to a kind gentleman allowing myself to pass first, as a simple demonstration of human courtesy, but I might well feel decidedly odd and distinctly uncomfortable if this occurred rather too often!

[cloughie]

( Wasn't that Bilbao though ?)

That sounds almost Tolkeinesque!

[vinteuil]

...being trained as I was by my father to recognise and respect gender difference as stated previously.

... I wonder how extensive or profound your father's training was -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

[french frank]

Surely it can have everything to do with etiquette if the gentleman in front of the lady then holds the door ajar to allow the lady to enter/exit first ?.

It CAN, if that's what it means to you ("I, a gentleman, am holding the door open for this lady").

To me it has to do (as I suggested) with a concept of necessity rather than etiquette. A swing door will close abruptly in someone's face. Someone pushing a buggy needs a bit of help with a door. Being slightly disabled, I'm grateful if there is a convenient disabled/old person seat for me in the bus; but if someone gets on who looks more disabled than me, I will at least offer to move. And I will say thank you if someone moves for me. Isn't that just normal behaviour?

[jean]

...I would have no intrinsic objection to a kind gentleman allowing myself to pass first, as a simple demonstration of human courtesy, but I might well feel decidedly odd and distinctly uncomfortable if this occurred rather too often!

You need to think long and hard about why this should be so.

[P. G. Tipps]

It CAN, if that's what it means to you ("I, a gentleman, am holding the door open for this lady").

To me it has to do (as I suggested) with a concept of necessity rather than etiquette. A swing door will close abruptly in someone's face. Someone pushing a buggy needs a bit of help with a door. Being slightly disabled, I'm grateful if there is a convenient disabled/old person seat for me in the bus; but if someone gets on who looks more disabled than me, I will at least offer to move. And I will say thank you if someone moves for me. Isn't that just normal behaviour?

Sadly, I wouldn't say it was particularly 'normal' these days, but thoroughly correct behaviour and commendable, nonetheless.

However, I think, as you do, we must distinguish between social etiquette and assisting those less able. I do not invite a lady to enter a room before me because I consider her unable to follow on behind. I am simply demonstrating my respect for her gender as surely any true gentleman would.

In my experience, the great majority of ladies, even today, appreciate these little courtesies. I have only had one or two unseemly glares from a few ladies (mostly young) when doing this, but I've simply put that down to a possibly very poor upbringing which is hardly their fault ?.

I'm really quite forgiving, you know ...

[P. G. Tipps]

You need to think long and hard about why this should be so.

What you really mean is that I need to think the way you do ...?

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect I might find that well-nigh impossible.

[Zucchini]

I do not invite a lady to enter a room before me because I consider her unable to follow on behind. I am simply demonstrating my respect for her gender ...

And the head waiter inclines his head and winks at her to show he's clocked that she's got her sugar daddy (or toy boy) in tow ...

[jean]

What you really mean is that I need to think the way you do ...?

No, I mean that examining the reasons why you would feel decidedly odd and distinctly uncomfortable if men habitually held doors open for you to walk through might lead you to a degree of self-knowledge that's hitherto eluded you.

Go on. Be brave.

[P. G. Tipps]

... I wonder how extensive or profound your father's training was -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

My father probably calculated (rightly, as it happens) that I would be most unlikely to come across those of a 'Genderqueer' persuasion in the course of a lifetime.

As for myself, I simply determine a person's gender by the clothes they wear. If I ever determined a person's gender wrongly on the basis of the available evidence before my eyes I would immediately and unreservedly offer a most humble apology.

[P. G. Tipps]

And the head waiter inclines his head and winks at her to show he's clocked that she's got her sugar daddy (or toy boy) in tow ...

Oh, you male cynic ...

[greenilex]

I think we should endeavour to be gracious regardless of gender. Politeness involves placing the needs of the other before one's own in everyday social intercourse, and I think children who learn this early are fortunate.

It is particularly important during meals, when serving oneself first quickly turns to grabbing.

It doesn't hurt that members of the opposite sex see and respond to polite behaviour.

[P. G. Tipps]

No, I mean that examining the reasons why you would feel decidedly odd and distinctly uncomfortable if men habitually held doors open for you to walk through might lead you to a degree of self-knowledge that's hitherto eluded you.

Go on. Be brave.

Bravery is a vastly over-rated 'virtue' if it is recommended to one by others and merely leads to a needless self-destruction, I mostly humbly submit, madam ...

However, to be fair to our otherwise remarkably intuitive ladies, how can they possibly know and understand the particular issues that might occasionally confront and challenge gentlemen like myself ?

And you, madam, are a lady, after all ...

[P. G. Tipps]

I think we should endeavour to be gracious regardless of gender. Politeness involves placing the needs of the other before one's own in everyday social intercourse, and I think children who learn this early are fortunate.

It is particularly important during meals, when serving oneself first quickly turns to grabbing.

It doesn't hurt that members of the opposite sex see and respond to polite behaviour.

Excellent post!

Another thing that time forgot ... Grace Before/After Meals ?