Overkill

[kernelbogey]

We identify actors/actresses with roles - the better the acting, the more so - in a manner that is distinct from 'knowing' that the the character is not 'real', and that actor and character are different.

To take a random example, I will always think of Peter O'Toole as Lawrence of Arabia, and indeed his image may come to mind if I read a reference to Lawrence that is not connected to the film.

I can't connect this idea directly to our discussion of Carrie Fisher/Princess Leila, since I only ever saw the original Star Wars films about forty years ago. But I make the point that the actor/character identification goes beyond 'knowing the difference'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

We identify actors/actresses with roles - the better the acting, the more so - in a manner that is distinct from 'knowing' that the the character is not 'real', and that actor and character are different.

To take a random example, I will always think of Peter O'Toole as Lawrence of Arabia, and indeed his image may come to mind if I read a reference to Lawrence that is not connected to the film.

I can't connect this idea directly to our discussion of Carrie Fisher/Princess Leila, since I only ever saw the original Star Wars films about forty years ago. But I make the point that the actor/character identification goes beyond 'knowing the difference'.

Film critics go completely the other way - as though the actors are the characters.

[MrGongGong]

Film critics go completely the other way - as though the actors are the characters.

Phil Archer is real

http://www.philarcher.net/works/music_boxes.html

[Richard Tarleton]

Eeek - I clicked on that

[french frank]

Hmm, must go out and do some shopping … but :

I'm not sure, then, what was the purpose of your Do you think such stars would become just as 'popular' if nothing was written or broadcast about them until they die? - as "fame" and popularity depend on people talking and writing about someone, you seem to be asking "do you think they'd be as popular if they weren't as popular?"

Is it the same thing? I mean if people just went to see a film and thought afterwards, 'I enjoyed that' or said that to the person they saw it with, and there was no pre-performance publicity, no reviews, no reports, would Steven Spielberg, Carrie Fisher, John Williams become as - quotes - 'popular' just because many people had gone to the film and enjoyed it? Doesn't publicity have a snowball effect?

I'm sure you don't think that "anyone is ... 'intellectually challenged' because they enjoy them", but in raising the point about people in the past actually grieved at Doris Archer's death, and the story that many people believe false stories because they've read them on the Internet in the context of people grieving more for the character rather than the actress does "suggest" that you are making some kind of connection between people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

But, as I remember what I wrote, I said they were upset about the 'loss' to themselves i.e. nothing more to come from Carrie Fisher, nothing more from David Bowie (what a sad loss at such a young age was Schubert): that's nothing to do with them confusing fantasy and reality. It's losing the specific source of enjoyment. (That's what I meant in Msg #311 - what is it we lose that we value so much, which was my point about how much entertainment has come to mean to people).

The Media "overkill" is explained entirely by their need to follow the money, selling to the largest public. It's a comment on the Media's fear and uncertainty of their future - not on the public.

Yes, and the news media keep a close eye on what their rivals are publishing. Though 'selling to the largest public' and 'the public' are not unconnected. To what extent do the media create the largest public?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Just got back in from my shopping

... if people just went to see a film and thought afterwards, 'I enjoyed that' or said that to the person they saw it with, and there was no pre-performance publicity, no reviews, no reports, would Steven Spielberg, Carrie Fisher, John Williams become as - quotes - 'popular' just because many people had gone to the film and enjoyed it? Doesn't publicity have a snowball effect?

It certainly must play a part, otherwise they wouldn't spend so much on it. But no amount of hype could stop Dune from bombing at the Box Office - some people went once, were disappointed, didn't go again and told their friends it wasn't worth seeing: "the media" couldn't "create the largest public" in this instance, nor can I think of anything that has retained its place in people's affections and admiration whose attributes have been created by a publicity machine, rather than from its own merits. The publicity for Star Wars got an initial audience interested enough to go to see the film, but the quality of the film made such an impression that they went to see it again and again (and in some cases "and again") and told their friends it was something they should go and see. Publicity is just advertising a new product - different forces then get to work. The forces of the product making deep impressions on people's memories and emotions - and it's these deep impressions that caused the sense of personal loss felt when Carrie Fisher died. The film - not the publicity: nobody has gone online to express their deep sorrow that there won't be any new posters or trailers featuring her. (And again, the newspapers and broadcast news are merely following the fleet, not supplying the fish.)

As to what it is that people value so much that creates this sense of loss - well, I suspect there are a whole range of answers, but imagine the daily life of, for example, a Nurse. He has had to catch a bus to get into work because his car wouldn't start in the morning, so he's arrived late and got a funny look from his line manager (who doesn't think that men should be nurses in the first place) - he's spent the day trying to keep up with the demands of patients and visitors with far too few colleagues to help; he's been lifting overweight people from wheelchair to bed; cleaning some sweet old guy who's terribly embarrassed at what's happened, and managed even to get the old bloke to smile at one of his jokes; he's been slapped around the head by a confused patient who thinks he's trying to kill him; he's not been able to drink his tea because of all the alarm calls from patients (some of whom just want to know if he can pop to the shop and get them a Mars bar); three people coming round from surgery have been sick over him; he's knackered three hours before he finishes; he hears that traffic delays mean that buses home are going to be late; and just as it's nearly time to finish, he hears that the sweet old guy died a couple of hours after he'd spoken to him, and would he 'phone the family to let them know.

Now, he knows of several colleagues who wind down from such a day by reading Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica in the original Latin, and others who are making their own completions of Contrapunctus XIV - but for him it's going to the cinema; it takes him away from the (literal) shit of his daily work, and for that alone he's deeply grateful, but it also puts him in a better frame of mind with which to face the next working day - and the one after that - and all the underpaid days for the next thirty years before retirement. It's "escapism", if you wish, but it isn't just an escape from the daily grind (though if it were, that in itself would explain why the film and its performers are so valued) it's also an escape to a refreshened ability to cope with and defeat whatever is daily thrown at them. That's why "entertainment" (from the latin for "to enter and hold" the imagination, I believe?) has come to mean - and has always meant ("does Little Nell survive?") - to people.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Eeek - I clicked on that

Haven't you been warned about clicking on dubious internet links. Have a care.

(I clicked on it too.)

[jean]

Interesting to hear this afternoon's Last Word reflecting on 2016, how they decided who to select for the programe.

First rule of obituaries: Don't die on the same day as someone more famous than you. The great Alan Rickman fell foul of this - David Bowie was always going to get greater coverage.

.

[Sir Velo]

I think it's clear to all of us here that the media has a vested interest in creating a pseudo global happy family of celebs and plebs. By making us all feel that we're somehow soul buddies with actors and singers we've never met and never will they get us to buy all their celeb marketed paraphernalia. Consequently, we end up with the situation where we weep at the deaths of film and pop stars while remaining dry eyed at the demise of a close family member. Let's also not forget that we're all complicit in this as well and that we can't just blame the media for this parodic situation.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Consequently, we end up with the situation where we weep at the deaths of film and pop stars while remaining dry eyed at the demise of a close family member.

Speak for yourself, ducky.

[cloughie]

Phil Archer is real

http://www.philarcher.net/works/music_boxes.html

YES, but Norman isn't Painting anymore!

[P. G. Tipps]

I think it's clear to all of us here that the media has a vested interest in creating a pseudo global happy family of celebs and plebs. By making us all feel that we're somehow soul buddies with actors and singers we've never met and never will they get us to buy all their celeb marketed paraphernalia. Consequently, we end up with the situation where we weep at the deaths of film and pop stars while remaining dry eyed at the demise of a close family member. Let's also not forget that we're all complicit in this as well and that we can't just blame the media for this parodic situation.

A very balanced view, imo.

Many things are quite beyond our personal control so we simply need to accept the world as it is without necessarily going along with all its mind-numbing craptitude ?

We can only bawl loudly in protest against the mind-numbing craptitude and hope (however naively) that the mind-numbing craptitude will eventually cease?

Some hope!

[ahinton]

Interesting to hear this afternoon's Last Word reflecting on 2016, how they decided who to select for the programe.

First rule of obituaries: Don't die on the same day as someone more famous than you. The great Alan Rickman fell foul of this

So did Prokofiev.

[P. G. Tipps]

p. g. tipps

... things like this are rare

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22270455

You're telling me and nearly two years old!

I hereby rest my case ...

[Lat-Literal]

Just got back in from my shopping


It certainly must play a part, otherwise they wouldn't spend so much on it. But no amount of hype could stop Dune from bombing at the Box Office - some people went once, were disappointed, didn't go again and told their friends it wasn't worth seeing: "the media" couldn't "create the largest public" in this instance, nor can I think of anything that has retained its place in people's affections and admiration whose attributes have been created by a publicity machine, rather than from its own merits. The publicity for Star Wars got an initial audience interested enough to go to see the film, but the quality of the film made such an impression that they went to see it again and again (and in some cases "and again") and told their friends it was something they should go and see. Publicity is just advertising a new product - different forces then get to work. The forces of the product making deep impressions on people's memories and emotions - and it's these deep impressions that caused the sense of personal loss felt when Carrie Fisher died. The film - not the publicity: nobody has gone online to express their deep sorrow that there won't be any new posters or trailers featuring her. (And again, the newspapers and broadcast news are merely following the fleet, not supplying the fish.)

As to what it is that people value so much that creates this sense of loss - well, I suspect there are a whole range of answers, but imagine the daily life of, for example, a Nurse. He has had to catch a bus to get into work because his car wouldn't start in the morning, so he's arrived late and got a funny look from his line manager (who doesn't think that men should be nurses in the first place) - he's spent the day trying to keep up with the demands of patients and visitors with far too few colleagues to help; he's been lifting overweight people from wheelchair to bed; cleaning some sweet old guy who's terribly embarrassed at what's happened, and managed even to get the old bloke to smile at one of his jokes; he's been slapped around the head by a confused patient who thinks he's trying to kill him; he's not been able to drink his tea because of all the alarm calls from patients (some of whom just want to know if he can pop to the shop and get them a Mars bar); three people coming round from surgery have been sick over him; he's knackered three hours before he finishes; he hears that traffic delays mean that buses home are going to be late; and just as it's nearly time to finish, he hears that the sweet old guy died a couple of hours after he'd spoken to him, and would he 'phone the family to let them know.

Now, he knows of several colleagues who wind down from such a day by reading Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica in the original Latin, and others who are making their own completions of Contrapunctus XIV - but for him it's going to the cinema; it takes him away from the (literal) shit of his daily work, and for that alone he's deeply grateful, but it also puts him in a better frame of mind with which to face the next working day - and the one after that - and all the underpaid days for the next thirty years before retirement. It's "escapism", if you wish, but it isn't just an escape from the daily grind (though if it were, that in itself would explain why the film and its performers are so valued) it's also an escape to a refreshened ability to cope with and defeat whatever is daily thrown at them. That's why "entertainment" (from the latin for "to enter and hold" the imagination, I believe?) has come to mean - and has always meant ("does Little Nell survive?") - to people.

Mainly agree - but it is also the real world.

In my first 19 years, I never had breakfast with just my Mum and Dad.

I always had breakfast with them and the Today team.

I also share a bed with a range of BBC radio stations.