Overkill

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Getting back to the Overkill debate: for me, this isn't even specifically about David Bowie (and what he may or may not have meant to anyone). It's about this national or, as now, global phenomenon whereby human beings become so 'attached' (for whatever reason) to others only known to them through the media - or a particular medium - that dumbfounds me.

But did the crowds who lined up to see Beethoven's funeral procession all know the composer personally or only through the medium of his Music (or even through that, rather than as a Viennese "personality")? The idea that this is something "recent" is misplaced - the "media" only make artists' work more widely known; it (using "the media" as a singular) cannot create the lifelong or widespread appreciation of anyone who doesn't have something that communicates with how people understand and feel about the world they live in: there isn't going to be this sort of "overkill" for Gareth Gates - which is why "overkill" in this instance is itself something of an exaggerration.

Did it start with the death of Grace Archer?

Little Nell? Young Werther? Eleanor of Aquitaine and the cult of la belle dame sans merci?

(And that's not trying in any way to trivialise Bowie - the Archers mean as much to some people as Bowie meant to others).

No - but it is a profound misunderstanding of the relative merits of two different phenomena; as I'm sure all your listening to Bowie's work over the last week will have revealed

Not so much the Global Village as the Media Village, presumably. Not the media as influencing but as disseminating.

But the media disseminates so very, very much - Gareth Gates is out there, so is Brian Ferneyhough; it's people who make their own choices from what's on offer.

But I still find the outpouring of emotion surprising.

Bowie specifically, or also Beethoven and Artists in general?

[Bryn]

[Hadn't read ds's post first]

Getting back to the Overkill debate: for me, this isn't even specifically about David Bowie (and what he may or may not have meant to anyone). It's about this national or, as now, global phenomenon whereby human beings become so 'attached' (for whatever reason) to others only known to them through the media - or a particular medium - that dumbfounds me.

Did it start with the death of Grace Archer? (And that's not trying in any way to trivialise Bowie - the Archers mean as much to some people as Bowie meant to others). Not so much the Global Village as the Media Village, presumably. Not the media as influencing but as disseminating.

But I still find the outpouring of emotion surprising.

Well, in my case the personal acquaintance was by one remove. An older cousin who used to live in the flat below me in Holland Park used to work for Gem Music Publishing in Regent Street. David and Angie were frequent visitors to the office. It was that cousin who introduced me to Bowie's music via Hunky Dory. I even ligged it to one of one of his gigs at the old PCL SU site in Tottenham Court Road. Very good it was too, with the late Mick Ronson in his prime, and Bowie no mean sax player, (though no Evan Parker). Sort of lost interest after Ziggy Stardust but got Blackstar a few days ago and am suitably impressed by the artistry. Not a fan of the Glass's symphonic treatments of Bowie's stuff.

[french frank]

ferney



I am Out to Lunch (yes, really - as in 'out for lunch with a friend') and have to leave soon. But MUST come back on some of these points, well, perhaps just one for the moment:

No - but it is a profound misunderstanding of the relative merits of two different phenomena; as I'm sure all your listening to Bowie's work over the last week will have revealed

I know what you're smiling about, right enough! This was my point about not trivialising. I don't think it's a question either of relative merits or absolute merits. My point applies equally to the reaction to GA's death, even to Princess Diana's. And it could be that as a phlegmatic <cough, cough> I don't get emotional about such things. Beethoven's funeral I would take as an occasion like a state funeral now in the UK - people wanting to pay their respects, and an odd hanky seen here and there as people wiped a tear from their eye at the memento mori. It is the sheer scale of this latest reaction, predominantly restricted to particular generations, that surprises. Though I have no doubt younger people are buying up the Bowie albums (the oldies already have them! ).

[Daniel]

[Hadn't read ds's post first]

Getting back to the Overkill debate: for me, this isn't even specifically about David Bowie [...] It's about this national or, as now, global phenomenon whereby human beings become so 'attached' [..] to others only known to them through the media - or a particular medium - that dumbfounds me.

... But I still find the outpouring of emotion surprising.

Briefly, if I may stick with the example of Bowie to make the point, I think one can pick up as much from a song sung by someone as a conversation with them. The feeling of intimacy, whatever, is transmitted in a different way. So though David Bowie may not even be aware of you, you can feel intensely close to what you perceive to be him and the world he creates.

Bowie through the alchemy of his imagination was able to transform self-doubt, alienation into great art, rather like Schubert. For me Bach, Beethoven, Mahler count amongst some of the great rewards of being alive, but nobody's music is more important to me than David Bowie's. There is no music I feel closer to. I feel the grief of Bowie's passing as vividly as that of a close friend, it's an ache in my side. I entirely understand your dumbfoundedness, it is a bit strange, but human communication/closeness, can take many forms ... one-way emotion, across the airwaves can be very deep, personal links with people you've never met can be very intense, why else would people get so attached to Shakespeare, Mozart etc.?

As far as the thread title goes I do think it's been overkill, and I've ignored most of it.

[cloughie]

Briefly, if I may stick with the example of Bowie to make the point, I think one can pick up as much from a song sung by someone as a conversation with them. The feeling of intimacy, whatever, is transmitted in a different way. So though David Bowie may not even be aware of you, you can feel intensely close to what you perceive to be him and the world he creates.

Bowie through the alchemy of his imagination was able to transform self-doubt, alienation into great art, rather like Schubert. For me Bach, Beethoven, Mahler count amongst some of the great rewards of being alive, but nobody's music is more important to me than David Bowie's. There is no music I feel closer to. I feel the grief of Bowie's passing as vividly as that of a close friend, it's an ache in my side. I entirely understand your dumbfoundedness, it is a bit strange, but human communication/closeness, can take many forms ... one-way emotion, across the airwaves can be very deep, personal links with people you've never met can be very intense, why else would people get so attached to Shakespeare, Mozart etc.?

As far as the thread title goes I do think it's been overkill, and I've ignored most of it.

I guess you are probably in your 50s.

[teamsaint]

not a direct comparison,I know, but the reports on the funeral of professional rower Henry Clasper on Tyneside in 1870 make for interesting reading.

I wonder how the reactions would have been in 1870,l if there had been modern instant mass media?

http://www.nerowing.com/rowhist/clasper.html

oh, and it occurs to me that renaming of Mars might not be such a revolutionary step....some of these rowers had towns in Canada named after them .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hope the lunch was a great and enjoyable success, frenchie.

Just one point :

Beethoven's funeral I would take as an occasion like a state funeral now in the UK - people wanting to pay their respects, and an odd hanky seen here and there as people wiped a tear from their eye at the memento mori.

... I wonder if there were people around who looked upon the crowds at Beethoven's funeral with similar incredulity to that expressed in many places about Bowie's ("It's practically a State Funeral, for goodness' sake! He was only a damned Musician, after all ... and not even a very good one, at that! Haydn! Now there's a real composer for you ... and they didn't make all this fuss for him!")

[Daniel]

I guess you are probably in your 50s.

Derren Brown should be very afraid!

[eighthobstruction]

....goodness knows what will happen when Gareth Gates passes....I'm sure the Beeb have a contingency plan....

[Mary Chambers]

A primary school in Hackney has held a memorial assembly for Bowie. I feel I am living in a society I simply don't understand at all.

[teamsaint]

A primary school in Hackney has held a memorial assembly for Bowie. I feel I am living in a society I simply don't understand at all.

i think that is how the folks at the top want it.

( all of us, not just you, obviously !!)

[ahinton]

But did the crowds who lined up to see Beethoven's funeral procession all know the composer personally or only through the medium of his Music (or even through that, rather than as a Viennese "personality")? The idea that this is something "recent" is misplaced - the "media" only make artists' work more widely known; it (using "the media" as a singular) cannot create the lifelong or widespread appreciation of anyone who doesn't have something that communicates with how people understand and feel about the world they live in: there isn't going to be this sort of "overkill" for Gareth Gates - which is why "overkill" in this instance is itself something of an exaggerration.

I think, however, that had the majority of Beethoven's compositional career centred around writing works that largely generated perplexity and bemusement, such as most of those that followed Missa Solemnis, the reaction at and in the wake of his funeral might have been somewhat different.

I think that one of the problems identified and questioned by FF is that it's far easier today to whip up the kind of large-scale hysteria that is what I think she means by "the outpouring of emotion" than was the case in Beethoven's day; to that extent, "where [and, by implication, when and how] it started" is therefore perhaps less of an issue than how much of it there is today compared to how much there would have been upon the death of Beethoven - and, even much more recently, I cannot imagine more than a vanishingly small number of people outside England getting worked up about the death of Grace Archer even had she been real!

[P. G. Tipps]

I still think some here are missing the main point .. or maybe I've missed it instead.

If millions want to indulge, say, in hysteria over a dead duck that is entirely up to them. They can do exactly what they like and what others think of them is irrelevant.

The criticism here is not of Bowie's fans (however silly their reaction might seem to some) but the completely OTT coverage by the media and press. French Frank suggests that the media and press know their customers and basically people get what they want. That may well be true in many cases but I'm not at all sure it is the case here. Are there really that many Bowie fanatics in the UK?

Being my rather cynical old self I tend to think it was more a case of lazy journalism where middle-aged/ elderly journalists and presenters like Norman Smith, Assistant Political Editor of the BBC, were given a chance from not telling us the blindin' obvious about their boring old briefs and instead chat almost interminably about how Mr Bowie's music and stage performances 'changed their lives'.

Frankly, I suspect the overwhelming majority of the UK population were not at all interested in such self-absorbed trivia when there are so many important and wretched things happening in our world. A famous person's death can be treated appropriately without all that irrelevant chatter attached. Then we can all move on to something else.

Mr Bowie, God rest his soul, and his music are not the issues. We can love it or hate it. I suspect there are many more who are indifferent but simply wish to note the passing of a famous pop-star, an undoubtedly notable event in their lives, like maybe the passing of a famous footballer might be to many others.

Anyway, talking about moving on ...

[jean]

Who is Gareth Gates?

[Bryn]

Who is Gareth Gates?

Son of Bill?