Copyright - again. The Law is a ass - again!

[Dave2002]

Just browsing at magazines on a shopping trip and one HiFi mag had an article about changes in the law relating to UK copyright and media.

It's now illegal - again - to rip CDs and DVDs, or store copies on hard drives. I guess most of us round here are now criminals - or whatever! Actually I'm not sure that this is considered criminal, as presumably civil "crimes" - I think there's another word - is it "tort" don't automatically make us criminals, do they?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33566933/ripping-music-and-films-illegal-again-after-high-court-overturns-new-law

Anyway, you have been warned!

Did anyone tell the judge that even playing a CD or watching a DVD would lead to a storage (perhaps only temporary) of bits representing the content in another form? External DACs should be banned!

[Nick Armstrong]

I guess most of us round here are now criminals - or whatever! Actually I'm not sure that this is considered criminal, as presumably civil "crimes" - I think there's another word - is it "tort" don't automatically make us criminals, do they?

That's right - not criminal offences: copyright infringements of this sort are matters of civil law i.e. it's the copyright holder who could pursue, it's not a police matter.

(Not really 'tort' either - I always think of torts as rules of civil law which originate not from statue (Act of Parliament) but from judge-made law over the centuries, like negligence or nuisance. Liability for copyright infringement derives from statute / Act of Parliament / legislation - those three terms are synonymous).

So you'd talk of being liable to the copyright owner not of being a criminal!

(Actually there are some copyright related crimes under the legislation too - but that tends to be if you try and commercialise infringing material)

This music copyright area isn't my field but I might try and find out more this week from colleagues who specialise in this sort of thing.

[Zucchini]

I always think of torts as rules of civil law ... blah blah blah ...

Boring, boring, boring .. don't you ever think of yummy Kirschtorte?

[Cockney Sparrow]

The music industry wants a levy to compensate them - they've lost the right to pursue us all for damages if we have converted anything in breach of copyright (remember all those Cassettes we made for the car....). The government gave away something the industry wasn't able to enforce, and used a process to arrive at a conclusion that the loss to the industry was minimal. (Other EU countries introduced levies on...?blank media ?devices - not sure which).

The court case:

http://www.ukmusic.org/assets/general/APPROVED_JUDGMENT_BASCA_second_hearing.pdf

...was a judicial review of the government process arriving at the minimal loss conclusion -the Court agrees the evidence did not justify that. The Court decline to say that the relaxation was null and void from the start (para 20-21 of the judgement) and says that the quashing has "prospective effect" - which I suppose means going forward from that date. The judgement was in June, it also says it is open to the government to re-run the consultation to see if it can evidence minimal loss - and I presume the other option is to come to some agreement with the industry, to their satisfaction (levy I suppose) or just agree its a nullity, or repeal it and leave the industry to enforce its rights as it can. In saying this, I am not a lawyer - just someone who doesn't want to rely on press releases or lobbying resulting is stories like the Newsbeat item.

Here's the trumpeting of the relaxation when it first came in:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/consumers-given-more-copyright-freedom

But I can find no information - hard information - on the UK gov website updating the position for the likes of members here, and the public at large. Is it now illegal to make a copy under the regulations - or does the government need to do something to perfect or, at the least make the position clear? So I've called the intellectual property office to lodge a complaint that I am left at the mercy of journalists who, like mechanical mice, are triggered by output from vested interests. and rarely give accurate information or reliable guidance. You can do the same - complain to the Intellectual property office on 0300 300 2000.... (At the least it adds to the statistics on the issue).

[Nick Armstrong]

Boring, boring, boring .. don't you ever think of yummy Kirschtorte?

Frequently!

[Dave2002]

Here's the trumpeting of the relaxation when it first came in:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/consumers-given-more-copyright-freedom

But I can find no information - hard information - on the UK gov website updating the position for the likes of members here, and the public at large. Is it now illegal to make a copy under the regulations - or does the government need to do something to perfect or, at the least make the position clear? So I've called the intellectual property office to lodge a complaint that I am left at the mercy of journalists who, like mechanical mice, are triggered by output from vested interests. and rarely give accurate information or reliable guidance. You can do the same - complain to the Intellectual property office on 0300 300 2000.... (At the least it adds to the statistics on the issue).

In English law as I understand it anything is legal unless it is expressly forbidden, either by statute or by case law. So perhaps that means that although we haven't been given the "rights" to make backup copies etc., we can still do so unless, or until somebody, or some organisation takes this further and sets a sorry precedent.

[umslopogaas]

I asked my local hifi shop about this and they said that the govt. passed legislation that allows you to "convert format" for personal use without infringing copyright, but if you then sell or give away either copy without destroying the other, you are then in breach of copyright. So, if you have copied lots of CDs to your hard drive, internal or external, and you then want to dispose of that drive, or the original CDs, you must wipe off the copies, or destroy the CDs.

[Dave2002]

I asked my local hifi shop about this and they said that the govt. passed legislation that allows you to "convert format" for personal use without infringing copyright, but if you then sell or give away either copy without destroying the other, you are then in breach of copyright. So, if you have copied lots of CDs to your hard drive, internal or external, and you then want to dispose of that drive, or the original CDs, you must wipe off the copies, or destroy the CDs.

I think your shop people are not up to date as the latest judgement which apparently overturned things was only a few months ago, but as I suggested, my guess is that you can do whatever you like until someone comes looking for you.

[ahinton]

It seems to me that, provided the law really isn't breached by reason of copies of such material being sold or offered for sale or otherwise detectably distributed, the present stance seems rather daft (and, as a composer, I'm all for defending reasonable copyright reasonably); who is going to find out that someone's copied something into a different format for his/her own personal use only and kept the original and who is going to prosecute on what grounds?

[Cockney Sparrow]

In English law as I understand it anything is legal unless it is expressly forbidden, either by statute or by case law. So perhaps that means that although we haven't been given the "rights" to make backup copies etc., we can still do so unless, or until somebody, or some organisation takes this further and sets a sorry precedent.

I'm not sure I agree with that. The relaxation recognised that the copyright holder had a property right - we can play the CD as a CD, but not rip it as well (unless our purchase contract provided we could). If there had been no property right, the legislation would have been a waste of time - it wasn't. To have a different format copy, we have to acquire that right (e..g. pay for a download). I know it seems crazy, but the fact that the industry didn't pursue those millions who did rip for private use doesn't legalise the practice, or I suspect make a recovery of damages** unenforceable, should they go so far. The regulation sought to relax /legalise the practice in very narrow circumstances, without introducing a consumer levy. (**civil damages, not a fine - as Cali says, in this context it is not a criminal matter)

The onus is on the government to explain the situation - at the least update that UK gov web page - and, as I said, I speculate they need to rectify or repeal the legislation.

(BTW it occurs to me, although of course it is obvious, how much our society and attitudes are based upon property rights. And the bad feeling which follows infractions - boundary disputes (you should see the bad feeling from "land grabs" on allotments) - deprivation of property (the legalised state theft of Railtrack from its shareholders - settled with a pay out after litigation was commenced). And the recent TV programmes setting out ownership of slaves and upon emancipation the compensation (funded by regressive taxation on basic commodities (pre Income tax)) paid out to the many owners residing all over the UK, in the largest government expenditure on any single project (in real terms) before the banking crisis (the programme asserted). http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18

[richardfinegold]

Can we all agree on something?
Most of us make copies to our own HDs.
Yes, it appears to violate the copyright laws of our respective countries.
So on this Forum, if we post a "How to" question regarding this, can we please REFRAIN from pointing out that this is an illegal activity?
By the way, it sends a tingle down my spine knowing that I am associating internationally with daring criminals such as myself...

[Lento]

Does this mean that uploading track to iTunes Match is only legal if the original file on PC/Mac is then deleted and the CD it came from thrown away?! Presumably it does! Bonkers!

[Cockney Sparrow]

This thread, as is clear from the title, is about the copyright law, and in the UK, so I think a discussion seeking to get to the facts of the property rights involved is valid. And the thread also involves vested interests spreading alarm, assisted by the media.

(There are a number of threads/topics I avoid on this forum as I find them, generally, tedious. When the bargains thread on the CD review board was more active, I found it tedious reading an update about multiple order status/despatches and deliveries for a particular "bargain"(and still do, when it happens).

As to Itunes match, you could ask them, or perhaps study the various EULAs/T&C's. I don't, and won't be using iTunes/Match etc, so I don't know. I can't see Apple facilitating a breach of copyright, to attract yet more litigation aimed at their healthy revenue stream. So I wouldn't be surprised to find it is not transgressing copyright law.

[Barbirollians]

No sign of an appeal on Case Tracker - so perhaps not so much of an ass.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So, if you have copied lots of CDs to your hard drive, internal or external, and you then want to dispose of that drive, or the original CDs, you must wipe off the copies, or destroy the CDs.

This seems to be the only reasonable way. . .