Consultations on the BBC

[Dave2002]

In the past I have defended In Tune as not being as bad as some of its critics have suggested, and indeed I still would. However, today the Rafferty mentioned a composer - Salieri - who taught Beethoven at one time, and perpetuated something which I thought had largely been discounted - "shows he was good for something ...." or similar words. Cheap! Should be made to apologise, or write out 1000 lines! OK I suppose Sean thought he was being clever and following on from Peter Shaffer.

[Richard Tarleton]

Indeed they do
But haven't you noticed that every time there is something in the media (Radio, TV, Press) about something you DO know about you are likely to be disappointed in how superficial it's presentation is?

No

What I was suggesting was that those people who are so enlightened to know everything about "Classical" music don't really need a radio station at all.
I find it interesting when I meet musicians who one would regard as at the very top of the profession and they tell me with great excitement about a composer who's music they are just discovering.
Surely a big part of the radio experience is for this to be available to more people?

Whether the people doing the presenting are the best for the job is another question IMV

I (listener, amateur player, very occasional performer) used to discover new stuff fairly regularly (composers, works, versions) on CD Masters. That stopped when CD Masters stopped (around 2007 or 8?). I also used to learn new stuff about things I knew a bit about, e.g. from Stephen Johnson. About the only places I trip over anything new now are on CD Review, or the Early Music Show. I'm probably not unrepresentative of what was a core demographic of R3 - aged 50-90+, interest in classical music fostered by a lifetime of listening to Radio 3/Third Programme. It's as if RW decided not to bother with my demographic any more, but to concentrate all his efforts on those yet to be converted to an interest in classical music. It was a really stupid strategy.

[Anastasius]

When I had a viva for my degree Nigel Osborne suggested that I listen to various things and explore several areas of music I knew nothing about.
Silly me actually listened to him (and several other knowledgeable musicians) what I obviously should have done was to tell him where to go and not be such a patronising idiot.

Surely one of the reasons for the radio IS to have people who know stuff suggest that there is music you might like?

Without PEOPLE suggesting things you really won't encounter them (look at what folks talk about here and suggest etc)

You're still missing my point. I can turn on Radio 3 and I might hear something that takes my fancy...something that I've not heard before. But I don't need a presenter telling me to listen to x because I might like Y. Nor Amazon telling me that someone who bought Saint Saens Organ Symphony also bought the Teddy Bears Picnic. Or eBay 'recommending' stuff based on something I might just once have fleetingly searched on.

[P. G. Tipps]

I have now been completely persuaded by the strength of the argument for an open-minded, unquenchable thirst for learning from the helpful suggestions of others and would myself suggest members might like to read the following:

For Mr/Ms GongGong:

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-play-drums/

http://www.elgar.org/2theman.htm

For Mr/Ms Serial_Apologist:

http://redicecreations.com/article.php?id=29612

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialism

I would also like members to know that I hold a Third-Class Honours Degree in Assistive Suggestiveness (Awarded By Post, Bob Jones University, South Carolina).

[Dave2002]

Nor Amazon telling me that someone who bought Saint Saens Organ Symphony also bought the Teddy Bears Picnic. Or eBay 'recommending' stuff based on something I might just once have fleetingly searched on.

Amazon often suggests buying X when I have already ordered and perhaps received X. However things are getting worse - as I now think Amazon is in league with other sites. If I browse around looking at stuff, then go to Amazon, I may find I'm recommended something even if I never looked at it on the Amazon site. I really am getting fed up with that.

It's quite an interesting idea though - does it help for someone who likes Mozart to be directed to similar pieces by Haydn or Beethoven? Or maybe - "If you like Mozart a lot, why don't you "get out" and try Stockhausen?". Should there be no recommendations/hints at all, or are they sometimes useful?

Can there be a sensible balance?

[MrGongGong]

Can there be a sensible balance?

Sensible?
I want the kind of suggestions that one sometimes gets in here.
If you like Schubert you might like Rammstein
If you like Mahler why not try some Combichrist ?

I bought a whole heap of Sorabji recordings after someone talked about them.

Done well (which is the real point) people enthusing about music is wonderful (and they don't even have to be experts in the actual music they are enthusing about).

[french frank]

Can there be a sensible balance?

No. In my view it's one thing for a friend who knows you, specifically, and your tastes and opinions to suggest something that might be worth your attention. It's quite another for some organisation to decide that 'because you (whoever you are) like X, you (whoever you are) might like Y' when a friend knows perfectly well that you would hate Y

[doversoul1]

I bought a whole heap of Sorabji recordings after someone talked about them.

Done well (which is the real point) people enthusing about music is wonderful (and they don't even have to be experts in the actual music they are enthusing about).

Was it Sir Antonio P by any chance?

It’s not suggestions by somebody but by nobody, i.e. Amazon, R3 webpage, or R3 presenters in some cases etc. that folks here are objecting.

Surely you are intelligent enough to see the point or you may just want to tell us how well connected (musically) you are?

[Dave2002]

No. In my view it's one thing for a friend who knows you, specifically, and your tastes and opinions to suggest something that might be worth your attention. It's quite another for some organisation to decide that 'because you (whoever you are) like X, you (whoever you are) might like Y' when a friend knows perfectly well that you would hate Y

Groan. You could make things worse - now they'll go away and try to produce an "intelligent" system which only gives you wnat it thinks you want to hear, and it will be monitoring your every action. The system will "become your friend". Personalised radio! Surely you don't want the BBC to be doing that, do you?

The alternative, which you seem to be suggesting, is that nothing at all should be said, but then that reduces the output of the BBC to effectively a juke box - with (at present) limited control over what is presented. Some here would like that - but then why use radio or TV at all? We can all make our own choices based on CD and DVD collections, and that is clearly a trend which is being observed.

[MrGongGong]

Was it Sir Antonio P by any chance?

NO much closer to home

(Tony P was eulogising about Sciarrino)

What you seem to be suggesting is that R3 presenters are badly chosen (which might be a good point) NOT that folks suggesting music to listen to (or even an algorithmic system) is inherently a bad idea.
My original comment was at someone who seemed to be suggesting (as MR Tipps did) that ALL recommendations and suggestions were patronising and unnecessary, hence the suggestion of giving up the radio in favour of a self curated () stream of wonderfully chosen music.

[Bryn]

Amazon often suggests buying X when I have already ordered and perhaps received X. However things are getting worse - as I now think Amazon is in league with other sites. If I browse around looking at stuff, then go to Amazon, I may find I'm recommended something even if I never looked at it on the Amazon site. I really am getting fed up with that.

It's quite an interesting idea though - does it help for someone who likes Mozart to be directed to similar pieces by Haydn or Beethoven? Or maybe - "If you like Mozart a lot, why don't you "get out" and try Stockhausen?". Should there be no recommendations/hints at all, or are they sometimes useful?

Can there be a sensible balance?

[french frank]

The alternative, which you seem to be suggesting, is that nothing at all should be said, but then that reduces the output of the BBC to effectively a juke box - with (at present) limited control over what is presented. Some here would like that - but then why use radio or TV at all? We can all make our own choices based on CD and DVD collections, and that is clearly a trend which is being observed.

I don't agree with that at all and it's absolutely NOT what I was suggesting. Radio 3 has in recent years made a special feature of its presentation as being 'recommendation'. I don't think if that aspect is reduced, Radio 3 becomes a juke box. If the only thing a presenter has to say about a piece of music is that 'If you like this, you'll love that' they aren't really qualified to be presenting on Radio 3.

Informed presentation ('added value') of a range of music allows listeners to gradually decide for themselves what they like and don't like, and to learn enough about about their own tastes to make discoveries. The key, in my opinion, is to have the interest and curiosity to explore. Only people who have no information at all, nothing to guide them, are at a total loss. Yes, there is an audience for 'recommendation radio' but I would say the Radio 3 audience isn't it. [Exception made for critical programmes, like CD Review]

[Dave2002]

ff

I hope you realised that I wasn't intending you or anyone else to take everything I wrote too literally. Indeed, I'm sure (90%) that you didn't.

However, do we give up on some form of recommendation or gentle steering?

There are some on these boards who seem to like some things, and dislike others. Should we recommend that they listen to Mozart, or Dream of Gerontius, or give up on the nightly concerts of Beethoven or Mahler, or simply not suggest anything for fear of upsetting them? What is the role of a broadcaster in these matters? Is it similar, or is a message board with its own "friends" a totally different beast?

At least most of the people who come here are interested in music of some sort, and are hopefully able to benefit from it. Should the BBC be doing anything other than, like Mr Gradgrind, presenting facts?
Regarding the latter though, it'd be good if they didn't keep on perpetuating some things which are either factually incorrect, or merely opinions.

[Dave2002]

Lol - to use a social media acronym.

Love it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Lol - to use a social media acronym.

Love it.

Surprisingly, perhaps, very "old school" performances - until you get to the cadenzas!