God save the Queen !

[Pabmusic]

...Scotty also rightly points out that the present ma'am (gawdblesser) is the second Queen Elizabeth only of England - for Scotland (and the other colonies) she is Elizabeth I.

No she's not (at least if you follow nomenclature as it has been since 1952). The then Prime Minister (Churchill) announced that henceforth any Monarch with 'double' titles would be known by the higher of the two. Had this been in place in 1603 (was it?) James I would have been James VI; and James II would have been James VII.

If Charlie wanted to call himself Charles (he's already said he'll be George) he'd be Charles III. The next James will be James VIII.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No she's not (at least if you follow nomenclature as it has been since 1952). The then Prime Minister (Churchill) announced that henceforth any Monarch with 'double' titles would be known by the higher of the two. Had this been in place in 1603 (was it?) James I would have been James VI; and James II would have been James VII.

If Charlie wanted to call himself Charles (he's already said he'll be George) he'd be Charles III. The next James will be James VIII.

I didn't know this - many thanks.

Seems a little odd - and is it "official": can a Prime Minister just "announce" on such matters and it becomes Law, or was there an "all-party" committee (or suchlike) to back him up? (Should Mr Corbyn become PM, he might have fun with the first option.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"QEII" - the ocean liner.

No. That was QE2 - the second ship to be called Queen Elizabeth.

[Pabmusic]

...can a Prime Minister just "announce" on such matters and it becomes Law, or was there an "all-party" committee (or suchlike) to back him up? (Should Mr Corbyn become PM, he might have fun with the first option.)

I don't know, but presumably it was a matter of Royal Prerogative - so the PM was announcing the Monarch's decision.

[As was the adoption of the 'Union Flag' as the flag of James I's fleet - although there's since been a Parliamentary vote (about the time of WW1) permitting its use on government buildings. It's never been adopted as the flag of the UK. Likewise God Save The Queen. Never, ever, adopted as an anthem for the UK, but many detailed rules (issued under Royal Prerogative) about when and how it should be used for royals.]

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But note that the "Union Flag" was different at the time of James I/XI.

[Pabmusic]

But note that the "Union Flag" was different at the time of James I/XI.

Yes it was. The (completely bogus) St Patrick's cross was added at the time of the creation of the United Kingdom (1802-ish), but not by Parliamentary vote. See Nick Groom: The Union Jack, Atlantic Books, 1988.

The Scottish saltire was traditionally rendered in navy blue from the 17th Century, which was a more durable colour for ships at sea. The present colour (pantone 300) was adopted in 2003. Influence of Braveheart, perhaps?

I've said it before, but it's amazing how few people believe me. The UK has no official flag, and no official national anthem.

[ahinton]

Now that a second stab at a Scottish "independence" referendum looks to be on the cards, shall we see the Union flag?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No. That was QE2 - the second ship to be called Queen Elizabeth.

Yes - but the reference to "QEII" that scotty made, which ahinton queried, to which jean referred as a "yacht", to which I replied (having lived in the house that Union Jack built) was to this vessel, not the current monarch (as ahinton thought).

[Beef Oven!]

Yes - but the reference to "QEII" that scotty made, which ahinton queried, to which jean referred as a "yacht", to which I replied (having lived in the house that Union Jack built) was to this vessel, not the current monarch (as ahinton thought).

[mangerton]

I don't know, but presumably it was a matter of Royal Prerogative - so the PM was announcing the Monarch's decision.

[As was the adoption of the 'Union Flag' as the flag of James I's fleet ]

Yes, the PM and his gang pauchled (good Scots word - look it up) the rules because that's what the queen wanted. It's interesting to note, though, that like many English people, you are inconsistent. Should the James I you refer to not be known as James VI?

Answer: "Well, obviously not because he wasn't J VI of England, and that's really all that matters."

[Pabmusic]

Yes, the PM and his gang pauchled (good Scots word - look it up) the rules because that's what the queen wanted. It's interesting to note, though, that like many English people, you are inconsistent. Should the James I you refer to not be known as James VI?

Answer: "Well, obviously not because he wasn't J VI of England, and that's really all that matters."

I object. (And you don't, actually, know that I'm English!) The system I described began in 1952, and not before. Had it been around in 1603, we'd all have been used to James VI.

But it weren't...

[ardcarp]

Going back to flags, why do all other countries use their national flags as ensigns on boats, while we in the UK have to have a special one? Needless to say there is class distinction among ensigns. Red if you're bog-standard (suits me) blue if you belong to a posh yacht club or white for the RN.

[Pabmusic]

Going back to flags, why do all other countries use their national flags as ensigns on boats, while we in the UK have to have a special one? Needless to say there is class distinction among ensigns. Red if you're bog-standard (suits me) blue if you belong to a posh yacht club or white for the RN.

History. The Royal Navy was divided, administratively, into three fleets: the Red Fleet, the White Fleet and the Blue fleet. This changed in 1864, when all colour squadrons were merged. The new Royal Navy kept the White ensign, because it had been Nelson's flag at Trafalgar (he had been Vice-Admiral of the White). They gave the Red Ensign (previously the flag of the senior squadron - Anson's for instance) - to the merchant fleet, and the Blue Ensign of the junior fleet to the Royal Naval Reserve.

Look at old naval battle paintings and you'll see all three flags. Why divide them at all? Well, at its height (from the mid-18th till the early 20th centuries) the RN was the largest navy in the world, by far. For much of its time it was larger than all other navies worldwide, combined.

Also, remember that the Union Flag is not (even today) officially our national flag.

[visualnickmos]

Wow - what an illuminating piece of history. I'd wondered the same thing, but never really thought about it much.

[Pabmusic]

Wow - what an illuminating piece of history. I'd wondered the same thing, but never really thought about it much.

Neither have I - why should you? - but I've always been drawn to such interesting snippets. Pure Asperger's of course.